snobs and frames for dummies
 

As a newbie to all of this, I'm still trying to work out whether the opinions here on various frames are a matter of fact, or snobbery.
I got into this hobby because of a rod-braked tank of a single speed, and a 1969 Raleigh Sport that would make a swell boat anchor, weight wise. Thus, things like alloy rims and 531 tubing meant nothing to me.
Now, I'm keen on putting together a sport-touring type 10-speed, but depending on what thread you read, the frame I've chosen to work with is either crap, or well worth using, though not worth much (namely, it's a 1973-era peugeot with fenders, possibly a uo8, but that's not the point).
So, my query: is a Reynolds 531 really that much better than what many refer to as gas pipe frames, or is it like fine wine, where the differences would quickly vanish if the name were covered up?
And if weight is that big a deal to the people here, why aren't they riding feather-light modern bikes, with carbon fiber bits, etc. (I'm sure the new ones handle and stop better too - though maybe I'm wrong?).
Finally, what is considered a low weight? Under 20 pounds? Under 25? And should I cut back on the number of sandwiches I pack, to help keep things light?
Please enlighten a three-speed owner looking to add a few gears.
Mike

Wow talk about opening a nice can o' worms.
I think that you'll find this forum is about the least weight conscious of all the
road related forums here at BF.
That said, yes there is a difference. A lighter butted tubed bike will ride better than
the equivalant "gas pipe" model. However that doesn't mean that a carbolite or U08 frame
doesn't ride well. There is something about a steel frame that is magic, maybe the way it
soaks up road buzz, or handles bumps or turns, but most here prefer that ride to the newer
lighter frame materials (well I do, can't really speak for everyone else).
Could I tell the difference with names/tube decals covered up? yah I think so, but not on a
round the parking lot test ride, need to get some miles in on the bike.
Snobbery? Look at the bikes we talk about here Raleigh 3speeds, Peugot U08s as well as PX's,
almost all are old steel frames.
Lightweight is probably less than 25lbs, my bikes average about 20 give or take a few grams.
Lghtweight for the road crowd is sub 18. I don't think anyone in this particular forum is concerned
with carbon fibre bits and trying to shed .05grams off a bikes weight.
Do the new bikes handle and stop better? no I don't think so. Well maybe the braking, especially
if the "vintage" bike has something like campy delta's which are speed modulators at best.

and that's just my opinion, I'm sure many other members have differing ones.

marty

Got to link provided below for an interesting article on whether one can tell what type of tubing they are riding upon.

http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Articles/SteelShootOut.pdf

I gotta 17 lb oclv (1994). I gotta 24 lb somec (1978). I rode 'em both last week. and enjoyed both. The oclv is reserved fo' da hamma, good tequila. the somec is much closer to fine wine.

Weight weenie competition is fun, but its pretty much for the people who don't make the break - I don't know any real fast guys that lose a lot of sleep worrying about a pound or two. Empty a freakin' water bottle. There'll be another at the hand up.

oh, and if you bring samwiches you have to share. I'll be the one with the wine.

My primary bike for commuting and sporting was a 40 lb Columbia one-speed w/ a coaster-brake rear hub and mtb-like bars. I took particular delight in pounding it up hills right past the folks clipped into their "lightweight" steeds (who would then pass me on the downhill). I once took it on a 50-mile relatively hilly club ride and had no problems keeping up with the pack. The frame geometry was just perfect for me, particularly in the length of the chainstays and the ways I was positioned in relation to the rear hub. I could stand on that bike and really go (of course, that was over 10 years ago; don't think I'm nearly as strong now).

However, as the owner of several 531 bikes, I have to say the combination of relatively lightweight steel and lack of flex is ideal. When I pedal hard, I want to feel like that energy is being transferred to the drivetrain without undue slop. 531 frames give me that sense. Now, I've rarely ridden non-steel frames, so ymmv.

Neal

thanks for the article CV-6! I recently accuired a 531 unbeknowenst to me and will see how it measures up to all my japanese tange frames. My guess is not much different. In addition, the craftsmanship does not look much better on the 531 frame. the seatpin binders do not appear to be in line with the top tube!

I don't think anybody here would say or even think that a 1973 era Peugeot is crap, regardless of whether it's a UO8 or a PX10. There's more to the quality of the bike than what steel is used. That said, a PX10 is going to be a better bike than a UO8, and that does have to do with the steel (spoken by someone who's never ridden either bike).


My 1977 Moto ( a sport tourer, by the way) is made with Vitus something-or-other-- more or less equivalent to 531-- in the main triangle. Before I bought my Moto, I had a 1971 Raleigh Record-- Raleigh's entry-level gaspipe sport tourer. The weight difference was palpable. The first time I lifted the Moto, at the bike shop, I could tell it was lighter than my Raleigh. And the ride was just so much nicer. Now I don't know if that's because of the Vitus tubing, or the quality of the components, or a combination of the two, but I really did like-- strike that-- LOVE the Moto from the moment I first test-rode it.

I'm not sure I have the ability to distinguish riding differences between 531 and carbolite 103 (which, by the way, is a step above gaspipe) in a blind test, at least not without extensive experience testing them before-hand. Maybe I could, but I just don't know. I do know, however, that the unsprung weight of a bicycle means that a lighter bike will be more efficient than a heavier bike. But as somebody pointed out above, if our primary concern was about weight, we would be riding modern carbon fiber bikes.

So...go ahead and build up your UO8 and enjoy that classic Peugeot ride!

My 77 Moto weighs in at 25 pounds, and as far as I know, that was considered light back then, although there were undobtedly even lighter bikes available. The 77 Moto was certainly lighter than my 71 Raleigh Record.

Ride and build-up what you like, want or have. Don't worry about what anyone else thinks you should have, unless you're motivation is to buy, build and sell in order to make a profit, in which case you do need to address the needs of the market.

I like to keep my vintage cycling as an inexpensive hobby, and limit myself to what I can pick-up very cheaply at yard sales, or rescue from the trash (over a dozen bikes last year). I save my cash for maintenance-type items, such as tires & tubes. If I had more disposal income I'd love to add Colnago's, Pinarello's and such to my collection, but I am content with my Atala, Fontan's, and Peugeot.

Could you feel a difference between a 531 frame and a gaspipe one, all else being equal? Almost certainly, yes.

First, the various iterations of Reynolds, Columbus, Tange, Ishiwata, Vitus, True Temper (have I left any out?) steel alloy tubes will give superior rides because (1) they are stronger than garden-variety steel alloys which means that (2) frames can be built lighter while retaining the same - or greater - strength, which also means that (3) you can get that great, lively "steel is real" feel that folks (me included) rave about but have a hard time describing in any objective, measurable way.

I am convinced, however, that once you get into the good steels, how much you like the ride is going to be more a matter of the skill and artistry of the framebuilder and designer than of the type of steel. Yes, the type of steel can make a difference, but how it is drawn (thickness, length of the butts or tapers, shape or shapes of the cross-sections, etc.) is likely to be more of a determining factor than the composition of the particular alloy. Of course, I have never built a frame (putting a lit torch in my hand is a really, really bad idea), so I may be completely wrong about this.

I would go at it this way. If your peugeot has all of it's parts on it, I would tear it apart relube it adjust it, put on new bits as needed. Then I would ride it. If you personally like it, then upgrade rims or brakes or what ever. If you don't like it then all you have invested is some time, grease, and a few bucks in bits. Sell it and look for something different.

I like my UO fine. Very comfy ride. And I've ridden PXs as well.

Forget weight for a moment, cheap tubing generally got less care in the build process than 531 (or other top tier tubing) and the geometry was also almost always different, but if one was to fabricate a "gas pipe" frame with the same level of care as a typical custom 531 frame aside from weight, one probably could not tell the difference, if two examples were built with the same geometry. While it is harder to "test ride" a steel lugged bike today, try to ride as many as you can and see what you like.

Good thread, bluespenny. This will be an intresting read in a few days...

Build up what you've got and enjoy riding it. Get/build some nice wheels - that makes a big difference, no matter what type frame you ride. When you upgrade parts, think about getting stuff you can swap around onto other frames. That's how I ended up with what I'm riding now, and I've enjoyed it for 23 years. A well-made quality steel frame is the backbone of a keeper bike. That's why you'll read so much on this forum about Reynolds 531 or Columbus, etc. tubing - the builders in the 70's & 80's made their best bikes on their best frames, and you can tell a difference when you ride one.

As far as weight and buying a new-fangled carbon fiber hotrod, there's no way I could afford one and if I could, I wouldn't want it. My bike is plenty light and a lot faster than I can ride nowadays, anyway. I'd be better served by shedding some pounds off of me!

Best wishes building your bike. It is a great hobby and sport. But stay away from the cheap wine.

I can really feel the difference between my old traveler (made of 1020 carbon steel) and my new bike--a Dawes from Ebay (Chrome-moly Dura-Forte Frame and fork). The traveler is "firmer" while the Dawes is lighter. It's hard to say I like one better than the other, but I often seem to reach for the traveler when I go to the garage; but that could also be some of the looks I get while riding what is so clearly a very old bike.

I am on the look out for any 531 frame to add to the collection (hmm, does 2 equal a collection or do you need to have more than 2---another thread opportunity). Given all that I have read about them on this forum, I am looking forward to the day when I can try a quality one for my self.

As for the other aspects of the original post; I simple add +1 to most of the comments. By going with a classic you can get a quality bike that will last and that can be enjoyed in so many ways--from rebuilding it yourself, to the exercise, to saving money, and so forth.

dude, you obviously never tasted good wine.

531 reynolds is dee bomb. 853 is supa dee bomb. Ride a bike and see for yourself.

I pity the foo who never tasted the sikly smooth tasting ride of 531, 631, 853.

I have several old Schwinns made from True Temper and low end Columbus tubes at their Grenville Miss plant. Can't tell the difference between them. I also have a Waterford with 531 and another with 753. You can sure tell the difference when riding the 753 bike. The 1200 with 753 is the stiffest bike I own. For me it's instant power transfer. The ride isn't reall bad though. My brother's Trek 1200 is much lighter and much stiffer. Actually, the Trek really beats you up in longer rides.

Tim

follow up
 

This has been interesting to read - and now I'm riding the "crap" peugeot, loving it, and wondering even more what a 531 frame or such would feel like. I used the UO-8 frame and added alloy bits - wheels, bar, stem, crank, while keeping the MacFac racers. It's super light (as per my experience) and feels very sweet and responsive to ride.
So now I have to find a 531 to compare...Alas, more collecting.
Thanks for all the replies so far.
Bluespenny mike

I have bikes with the following tubes

531 DB

531 C

Ishiwata triple butted, splined

SLX

SLX, with shaped chainstays

753

Dedaciacci ZeroUno

Aluminum

I can tell the differences between the Al and the steel bikes. I can tell the difference between the 531 and 753 bikes, due to weight.

Other than that, with a good quality tubeset the greatest difference arises from the wheels and tires.

I prefer to just ride a bike and enjoy it.