SecondSkin

This was my find of the year, and I have no idea what it is. The seller only knew that it was built up from a bare frame in the late 70's, and that the frame was probably Japanese in origin. His buddy sold it to him around '79 to use to commute to college, it sat in his garage since the 80's. As far as he knew, its never had a headbadge or stickers.

Here's what else I know about it: it's very light, probably butted chromoly at least -- the whole bike is under 22lbs even with reflectors, suicide levers, pie plate and pant guard. The bike has touring geometry with relaxed angles and a very long wheelbase. Second, it has distinctive lugs -- they have a deep vee pattern that extends far down the tops of the tubes, much farther than any nervex lug I've seen. Third, the cable stop for the rear derailleur is kinda unique -- its like a small post -- not unheard of, but distinctive. Finally, the bike has no bottle cage mounts at all, which is strange considering the geometry.

Component wise, its built mostly with SR-Suntour (V-GT and Apex) and diacompe centerpulls. Since it was built from a bare frame, I doubt that will be of help. What may help, though, is the serial #: N 5647 -- just 4 digits and a letter. [IMG][/IMG]

bigbossman 

I'm going to guess Centurion.....

TimJ

Those long points on the lugs are similar to a couple nishiki international (kokusai)'s I have. The fancy bit on the front is different, but the long points are the same. The narrow end of the seat stays where they hit the seattube look familiar too.

SecondSkin

My guess was Nishiki also, based on the "N" in the serial number. The lugs are fancier than any I've seen on a Centurion (still a possibility, though). Here's a close-up of the headtube, as well as the lug on the fork. The paint is in excellent condition, btw, though I need to clean it off. Its like bassboat metallic blue. Also, it seems that the frame was made specifically for barcons -- note the brazed shifter cable stops and no shifter bosses.

unworthy1

+1 for Nishiki, but it's not exactly like any Nishiki I saw before...similar to a couple, tho. The little upright post was common cable stop for a '70s JP bike that came with Suntour gear, and I agree it's designed for barcons, which I see you have the stock naked steel housings for. If not Nishiki, then maybe Centurion, but even less like an exact match to those in my mental data bank...maybe then this is one of those forementioned Sentinel bikes or even (here's a curveball) a Campania...T-Mar must be on vacation, he's the expert for this.

SecondSkin

After checking the Centurion serial number thread, I'm thinking this may be a centurion. Almost all of the serial numbers listed had "N" in them, usually followed by four digits (but usually the N is preceded by a letter -digit combination). One point against it being a Centurion is that the Serial # is on the seattube near the BB, not on the BB itself.

SecondSkin

Looks to be a Centurion after all -- here's a 70's Centurion with VERY similar lugs and identical seatstay mounting. I also found one other bike on Fixed Gear Gallery with similar lugs and the post type cable stop.

Markj61

Sounds like a similar mystery to my similar Viscount:
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/223293-my-late-70s-viscount-mystery-same-centurion-le-mans-sentinel.html

Must be Mystery Metallic Blue Curly Lug 70s Bike Week

T-Mar

Well, I haven't seen the serial number posted, so I'll defer comment on it being a Centurion, but I can almost guarrantee that it is NOT a Nishiki. All the boom era Nishiki that I've logged have had serial numbers that started with K, in reference to Kawamura, their manufacturer. Please post the serial number.

peripatetic

T-Mar! <hands on hips, forefinger waving in face> Shame on you! He posted the serial number!

Quote: What may help, though, is the serial #: N 5647 -- just 4 digits and a letter.

I'm curious now.

SecondSkin

Serial number was in the original post, but it was wrong anyway. Actual serial number: N5457

ollo_ollo

Another vote for Centurion. I had an early LeMans with identical ersatz nervex lugs and seat stays. It was a high ten frame and had a light blue metallic paint job. The Centurion decals were individual foil letters that gradually curled up & fell off over the years. Had a nice mix of Suntour VGTluxe derailleurs & SR Apex crank, also, I checked my records & the serial # JF76001 was located on the seat tube, non-drive side, down near the BB. Don

T-Mar

Oops (very red face)! Well, I'm not necessarily convinced it's a Centurion either. I've logged several dozen Centurion serial numbers and never came up with anything like that. Their typical format involing an "N" was Nabxxxx, where 'a' was a number indicating the year, 'b' was a letter indicating the fortnight and 'xxxx' was a sequential build number for the period. Of course, this does not prove it is not a Centurion, only that I've never seen a similar format.

The serial number is very short. It would seem to suggest a small volume manufacturer. Normally, that would indicate a relative high end frame, yet based on the workmanship and features, the frame appears more mid range. Late 1970s sounds about right, based on what I see. What is the seat post size, or did I just miss that too?

SecondSkin

Seat post is SR Custom, 26.6, dated to 75.9. Rear derailleur dates to August of 75 and shifters to June of 74. Based on those dates, frame was probably also made in late 1975, perhaps sold as a '76 model. Would that be early enough in Centurion's history that they were still using 4 digit serial numbers? My frame really does look alot like the white one pictured above.

Also, I got a chance to actually weigh it, and it's more than I thought -- 26.5lbs (subjectively it felt equal to my 22lb Trek 660, but I forgot that I had two full waterbottles in the Trek). Still, the 26.5lbs is for a 58cm frame with several useless additions (spoke protector, pant protector, steel pedals), so its no heavyweight.

Sammyboy

What's pretty much for sure is that if it weighs in at under 22 lbs with that sort of gear, it's not just chromoly. It's probably 531, or the Columbus equivalent.

SecondSkin

26.5lbs with all accessories shown, probably could get it down to 24-25lbs by removing the spoke protector, pants protector, heavy pedals, etc....I was wrong about 22lbs! I'm figuring its probably tange #2.

T-Mar

I was a bit suspicious of the weight, which is why I asked about the seat post size. Based on the era, weight, workmanship, fittings and seat post size, the frame is in a bit of a grey area. It is likely CrMo, but could be either plain gauge or butted. Typically, butted tubesets use seat posts 26.8mm or larger. Tange used a 26.8mm seat post for all their CrMo tubesets, both plain gauge and butted, at least until they introduced Prestige around 1983. A 26.6mm would still fit, but the seat lug should be noticeably pinched at the slot. If it's not pinched, it's likely a plain gauge tubeset.

The serial number data that I have indicates that the manufacturer using the N prefix started building Centurions around 1980. Serial numbers for earlier Centurions use different prefixes and none match your format. Please note that Centurion is only a US marketing brand, with the manufacture being contracted out, so a low serial number does not necessarily correlate to an early model. Presumibly, the chosen builders, had a long and established reputation prior to their selection, so I would not expect low serial numbers, even on early Centurions.

The other thing that I find strange on the bicycle assuming it is a mid 1970s Centurion is the lack of chrome and presence of the brake cable tunnels. Normally, it would have chrome fork and stay ends and use brake cable clamps or brake cable stops. This would also be typical for most other mass produced, Japanese frames. Is there any sign of chrome under the paint? The other thing that I would expect on a Centurion of this era, is rivet holes for the headbadge.

While it could be a Centurion and does look similar, I still have some doubts. However, you could always try contacting the owners of the similar Centurion frames and see if their serial number format matches yours.

LittleGinseng 

Could the color be indicative of the make? I have an '81 Panasonic Sport, though of lower quality than the OP's frame, and the color is spot on. Perhaps it's a mid-range Panasonic frame?

Where on the frame is the serial number located?