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The Retrogrouch manifesto/function not bling

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The Retrogrouch manifesto/function not bling

Old 01-28-07, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Otis
You might not know who he is, but he's got lots of credibility in the two-wheeled world (human powered and motorized) and was there. Regardless, the point he is making is "CHOICE". To me it's the end all to the carping about all this old vs. new BS. I guess not everybody can get a handle on that though.
Well, based on those gross over generalizations without any supporting evidence that he offers in that piece, I think Maynard G. Krebs will have more credibility than Maynard Hershon before long. Particularly this:

Originally Posted by Hershon
And although the ’70s were the so-called
heyday of lugged steel frames, you can buy a
better lugged steel frame now than you could’ve
then. Frames from many of today’s builders are
finer, more fussed-over and better finished than
anything Cinelli, Hetchins, Singer or Confente
ever produced.
Without slighting current framebuilders--and many a fine one there are--that's complete nonsense.

Neal
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Old 01-28-07, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
...I think Maynard G. Krebs will have more credibility ..........
A Maynard G. Krebs reference? Really?

Gee, mister....... you must be really old.....
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Old 01-28-07, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbossman
A Maynard G. Krebs reference? Really?

Gee, mister....... you must be really old.....
Well, truthfully, "Gilligan's Island" is the more appropriate Bob Denver reference from my childhood, but we had a cat that my older brother named Maynard because his black soul patch on a white fur face was very, well, M. G. Krebs, daddyo.

Neal
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Old 01-28-07, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
Well, based on those gross over generalizations without any supporting evidence that he offers in that piece, I think Maynard G. Krebs will have more credibility than Maynard Hershon before long. Particularly this:



Without slighting current framebuilders--and many a fine one there are--that's complete nonsense.

Neal
Unless he's talking about Baylis, Gordon, Sachs, or one of today's top custom bicycle builders, he's full of baloney. If he is, comparing one of those to Cinelli or Hetchins, he is comparing apples to oranges. Compare just about any 70's mass-production builder's lug work to any of today's mass-produced steel frames and....

hold on.

What? Well somebody must still mass produce steel frames outside of India. Oh. OK. Dawes you say? Is that it?

Case closed.
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Old 01-29-07, 12:16 AM
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I actually got drawn into the whole vintage thing because I just wanted to get into road biking without paying a lot. So I got an old bike (for free as it turned out). It was an ugly duckling, but with a lot of character, and a high-end model by sheer luck, and now it's cleaning up very nicely. I'm so glad I didn't spend hundreds for a soulless low-end new bike. Of course now I am constantly fighting the temptation (with mixed success) to spend lots of money on vintage parts and accessories.

So now I have 3 used bikes (the other 2 are low-end mtb rain bikes), total purchase price, $35. Of course it's misleading that those of us "pricing our stables" are talking about purchase price only. In fact I've spent more like $600-700 on bike gear, parts, tools, and LBS service. Some of that (like most of the gear) would still have been spent on a new bike, but some of it would have been avoided.
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Old 01-29-07, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by USAZorro
What? Well somebody must still mass produce steel frames outside of India. Oh. OK. Dawes you say? Is that it?

Case closed.
Kogswell was having them made in Taiwan. The factory that did em still does lugs and from what I hear they do a very nice job. Bob Jackson, and Mercian both in the UK both make off the rack frames. I'm not sure where Rivendell's mass produced frames are made, but I'm pretty sure it's not India. Taiwan and Japan I would guess. Oh speaking of Japan, Lets not forget Bridgestone, Panasonic, and any number of other brands that make stock frames for Keirin racing.

That's just what I happen to know of off the top of my head. You might want to spend 30 seconds worth of investigation on Google, or just wait 10 minutes to see if someone knows something you don't know before you close the case.


edit: Oh wait I fail on reading comprehension. I thought you were asking about LUGGED steel frames. Pracitaclly every major bicycle manufacturer offers a steel frame somewhere in their line. Let's pick Trek, Bianchi, Giant, Fuji, and Lemond off the top of my head. And while Old tubesets like Reynolds 531 aren't readily available, there are wonderful modern chromoly tubesets from Reynolds, Columbus, and Dedacciai to name a few. If you can't find new steel frames you're not looking very hard.
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Old 01-29-07, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by mattface
Kogswell was having them made in Taiwan. The factory that did em still does lugs and from what I hear they do a very nice job. Bob Jackson, and Mercian both in the UK both make off the rack frames. I'm not sure where Rivendell's mass produced frames are made, but I'm pretty sure it's not India. Taiwan and Japan I would guess. Oh speaking of Japan, Lets not forget Bridgestone, Panasonic, and any number of other brands that make stock frames for Keirin racing.

That's just what I happen to know of off the top of my head. You might want to spend 30 seconds worth of investigation on Google, or just wait 10 minutes to see if someone knows something you don't know before you close the case.


edit: Oh wait I fail on reading comprehension. I thought you were asking about LUGGED steel frames. Pracitaclly every major bicycle manufacturer offers a steel frame somewhere in their line. Let's pick Trek, Bianchi, Giant, Fuji, and Lemond off the top of my head. And while Old tubesets like Reynolds 531 aren't readily available, there are wonderful modern chromoly tubesets from Reynolds, Columbus, and Dedacciai to name a few. If you can't find new steel frames you're not looking very hard.
Try walking into your LBS and asking what they have in steel road bikes in stock. I'm not talking about hybrids, or cross bikes or track bikes. Fuji makes 1 model of touring bike, I didn't see anything at Giant's web site, Bianchi makes six models, but they all come with CF forks, LeMond makes one model, it too with a carbon fork, Trek makes one model, and by the way, you can get it in any color you want, as long as it's black.

You are right about Mercian, Bob Jackson and Rivendell (and I think you forgot Serotta), but you have to go to the builder for them (and in the case of Rivendell, you might as well go straight to your favorite custom builder for what you'll have to pay).

Contrast this to the late 70's when you could walk into my uncle's shop and pull a beautiful Raleigh, Peugeot, Motobecane, Frejus or Gitane straight off the floor. If you want one of todays' offerings, unless you have a friend who has one, you're placing a special order for a bicycle, sight unseen. Not that they aren't well made bicycles, but they are very scarce, and the experience just isn't the same.
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Old 01-29-07, 10:46 AM
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There are lots of great bikes in my local bike shop, and a few of them are steel. You'r problem is that you prefer 70s designs, and it's not the 70s.

Still you've got plenty of options. Either buy old bikes form the 70s which are plentiful and cheap, or get ready to take the extra effort to find a new bike that fits your antiquated tastes. It's not really THAT much extra work. pretty much every bikeshop in the land can get you a Surly or a Soma, and many stock them. Oh yeah I forgot Soma makes lugged frames too.

This seems like an awful lot of *****ing and moaning over a problem that really isn't that difficult to solve. It's hard to find bikes you like, because your tastes are outside the mainstream. Every shop can't be expected to cater to your outdated tastes. So you may have to travel a little further to find a shop that does, or deal with mail order. Deal with it. There are children in China who don't even HAVE bicycles, although some of them may have made yours.
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Old 01-29-07, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by USAZorro
....Bianchi makes six models, but they all come with CF forks.....
You say that like CF forks are a bad thing.

The Bianchi's actually ride very nicely. And Lemond makes a frame with a steel/carbon mix - the top half is CF and the bottom half is steel. It rides VERY well, and it is the cat's whiskers for heavier riders.

Also, Serrota offers a steel bike made out of Columbus tubes - although their niche seems to be Ti.

Oh, and to our friend mattface - you have some good points to make. But (and maybe I'm seeing something that isn't there), your tone seems a bit...... uncivil. We're all friends here, and uneeded contentiousness isn't necessary.

Pretty bike at the other end of you sig link, BTW......
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Old 01-29-07, 11:20 AM
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Jamis makes 'em, with CF forks.
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Old 01-29-07, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by wahoonc
I like the part about how you can buy two bike for the price of a modern weight weenie bike....I hate to disappoint anyone...but I probably bought 4 or 5 vintage bikes for what one modern CF bike costs I can appreciate the modern technology, but much prefer the older stuff. My absolute newest ride is a 2003 Staiger City Bike. My favorite ride is a 1972 Raleigh Superbe.

Aaron
peugeot pk10 1$, Spectrum road bike 2$, Nishike custum sport free, Schwinn la tour 85 cent, trek 800 85 cent,raleight sport 1$, ya old bikes are cheaper like 50 for the price of 1
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Old 01-29-07, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mattface
There are lots of great bikes in my local bike shop, and a few of them are steel. You'r problem is that you prefer 70s designs, and it's not the 70s.

Still you've got plenty of options. Either buy old bikes form the 70s which are plentiful and cheap, or get ready to take the extra effort to find a new bike that fits your antiquated tastes. It's not really THAT much extra work. pretty much every bikeshop in the land can get you a Surly or a Soma, and many stock them. Oh yeah I forgot Soma makes lugged frames too.

This seems like an awful lot of *****ing and moaning over a problem that really isn't that difficult to solve. It's hard to find bikes you like, because your tastes are outside the mainstream. Every shop can't be expected to cater to your outdated tastes. So you may have to travel a little further to find a shop that does, or deal with mail order. Deal with it. There are children in China who don't even HAVE bicycles, although some of them may have made yours.
Where do you get that I'm *****ing and moaning? I'm just trying to accurate. You're trying to tell me there are plenty of steel road bikes available today, and that they're better than what was on the market 20+ years ago. There's nothing "wrong" with modern bikes, but very few of them are steel, and good craftsmanship out of Mercian today, is no better than good craftsmanship out of Worksop or Ilkeston 30-35 years ago. If you want new steel, your choices are, in fact, very limited. I understand why that is, but fact remains that it is.

btw - I know for a fact that none of my bicycles were made in China. Four from England, two from Japan, one from the US. Seems like maybe I'm forgetting something though...
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Old 01-29-07, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by USAZorro
Seems like maybe I'm forgetting something though...
That's because you're old.
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Old 01-29-07, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by USAZorro
Where do you get that I'm *****ing and moaning? I'm just trying to accurate. You're trying to tell me there are plenty of steel road bikes available today, and that they're better than what was on the market 20+ years ago. There's nothing "wrong" with modern bikes, but very few of them are steel, and good craftsmanship out of Mercian today, is no better than good craftsmanship out of Worksop or Ilkeston 30-35 years ago. If you want new steel, your choices are, in fact, very limited. I understand why that is, but fact remains that it is.

btw - I know for a fact that none of my bicycles were made in China. Four from England, two from Japan, one from the US. Seems like maybe I'm forgetting something though...
I never said anything about better. You must be confusing me with someone else. I would argue that new frames of moderate price are as good as they were 30 years ago, and the cheap ones are way better than comparably cheap frames. As for the high end, if someon could build it 30 years ago, someone can do it today.

The selection of new steel bikes is certainly adequate to the market, if not plentiful, and if you're OK with used bikes they are extremely plentiful. Many people here have attested to buying numerous used steel bikes for under $10. I got my '78 Supercourse for free. Judging that frame fairly it was a really nice inexpensive frame. In spite of chipped paint it was still just as good 25 years later, but it was not work of art or an example of old world craftsmanship. In order to keep the price low they worked fast on the brazing, and it showed. I'd take another Supercourse in a heartbeat, but I'm not about to wax philosophic about how they don't make them like that anymore. The reason they don't make them like that is because when cost is an issue now they weld them. I doubt you will find a modern lugged frame with that kind of sloppy brazing.
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Old 01-29-07, 01:28 PM
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This thread is odd.
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Old 01-29-07, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mattface
I never said anything about better. You must be confusing me with someone else. I would argue that new frames of moderate price are as good as they were 30 years ago, and the cheap ones are way better than comparably cheap frames. As for the high end, if someon could build it 30 years ago, someone can do it today.

The selection of new steel bikes is certainly adequate to the market, if not plentiful, and if you're OK with used bikes they are extremely plentiful. Many people here have attested to buying numerous used steel bikes for under $10. I got my '78 Supercourse for free. Judging that frame fairly it was a really nice inexpensive frame. In spite of chipped paint it was still just as good 25 years later, but it was not work of art or an example of old world craftsmanship. In order to keep the price low they worked fast on the brazing, and it showed. I'd take another Supercourse in a heartbeat, but I'm not about to wax philosophic about how they don't make them like that anymore. The reason they don't make them like that is because when cost is an issue now they weld them. I doubt you will find a modern lugged frame with that kind of sloppy brazing.
I'm plenty ok with used ones. I'm here aren't I? I have a '78 SuperCourse too, and not surprisingly, it is of similar build quality to yours. I wouldn't quite call it "sloppy" (because it's worlds better than the job the lads in Nottingham did on my uncle's Superbe), but it's no work of art. On the other hand, I have a 1973-ish Fuji, and a 1969/70 Raleigh Professional that are very nicely finished. They're both near top-of-the-line models from their makers at the time, but they were still mass-produced.

I guess today, sloppy is reserved for welded aluminum frames. I have no doubt though, that if they were building the lower-end stuff out of steel instead of aluminum today, the cheap stuff would be no better than it used to be.
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Old 01-29-07, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by fender1
This thread is odd.
I hate winter. . .
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Old 01-29-07, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by lotek
I hate winter. . .

I was thinking the same thing. Mix one troll with a bunch of riders that are on the bench, and you get stuff like this....

You think it's odd here, go take a look at the road forum. Some of those guys are real a$$es. One or two in particular oughta be banned for life, they stir up so much *****.
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Old 01-29-07, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbossman
I was thinking the same thing. Mix one troll with a bunch of riders that are on the bench, and you get stuff like this....

You think it's odd here, go take a look at the road forum. Some of those guys are real a$$es. One or two in particular oughta be banned for life, they stir up so much *****.

Yeah I drop into the ss/fg forum sometimes and for the most part the posts can be humorus albiet opinionated. I went into the road forum once and have not been back. (shudders ) Vintage and commuting are where I tend to spend my time and I have noticed more of this type of thread recently. Must be the cabin fever! Studded tires and wool leggings for everyone! Like my dad used to say when my brothers and I would get rammy in the house "Get outside and blow the stink off a ya!" I was never sure what it meant but he is 6' 3"and and ex-marine, so thats is what we did!
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