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80's Campy Victory derailleur peformance?

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80's Campy Victory derailleur peformance?

Old 04-26-07, 09:16 PM
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PaPa
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80's Campy Victory derailleur peformance?

I have a matching set of Campagnolo Victory '87-'88? derailleurs, so I was pondering whether or not to try them. I'm used to, and quite fond of the high-end Suntour Superbe and Sprint stuff, so was wondering how these would compare. Would greatly appreciate user experiences. I'll be using Suntour's first gen bar-cons.

Last edited by PaPa; 04-27-07 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 04-26-07, 09:30 PM
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well I've had a victory rear derailleur matched with a front sprint on a vincini that I was fond of, shifted lovely.

my fiori currently has a victory front derailleur that I see no problems with.
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Old 04-27-07, 12:11 AM
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Front deraiileur: not so bad, kept within its limits.
Rear derailleur: never going to equal a Superbe or Sprint...but you might get used to it.
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Old 04-27-07, 07:19 AM
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Frank Berto has good things to say about the Victory RD in his "Complete Guide to Upgrading Your Bike" he say it was a huge improvement over the NR/SR because it had a B adj. screw. I've been looking for one to try on my PX10. It was low end, but it was Campy low end.
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Old 04-27-07, 07:22 AM
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I still use a Victory front derailer and it is shifting a triple/9 speed setup.
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Old 04-27-07, 07:32 AM
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I have Triomphe front & rear on one of my bikes & previously had Victory on another. They seem to work well with 8 speed brifters & appear identical to me although there are rebuild kits for each so there must be some difference. Don
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Old 04-27-07, 07:51 AM
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Thanks all.
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Old 04-27-07, 08:07 AM
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Triomphe and Victory FDs were essentially identical, the latter coming in clamp-on (with two clamp pivots, VS the Triomphe's single clamp pivot) and braze-on.

Both performed adaquately, but I believe Campagnolo had a little bit more to learn about adding shift aids to the front derailer cages - as a result, sometimes these derailers feel akin to a somewhat finiky NR/SR FD.

As for the rear, Campagnolo Victory performs excellent over narrow-range freewheels, due mainly in part to the adjustable (but once adjusted, fixed-position) B-angle of the derailer. You can set the front pulley wheel very close to the cogs (and quite a ways in front) on a narrow range freewheel, and recieve superb shifting. For that matter, it also provides excellent chain wrap). See below photo ('87 Victory S3 shown):



On wide-range clusters, however, a derailer with spring-loaded top pivots outshine the Victory derailer, as you are limited as to your B-angle adjustment by that large cog. Chances are you won't be using a Victory derailer in this case (unless it is the Victory LX touring RD), so it doesn't particularly matter. See the not-too-extreme example below ('85 Victory RD):



As for the LX touring variant...not so hot. As mentioned above, the B-angle has to be adjusted to the point where the foward pulley wheel no longer sits foward of the freewheel or cassette's centerline when shifting up the cluster.

Incedentally, although it may look virtually identical, the Triomphe derailer is considerably worse then the Victory. Like the NR, it has a fixed top pivot stop, but in an effort to give it better chain wrap-up capacity, the fixed stop was designed to leave the derailer paralellogram nearly vertical. The result? A foward pulley wheel that constantly remains behind the centerline of the freewheel, providing substandard performance. Using Triomphe RDs in conjunction with early Shimano 600 Uniglide freewheels seem to help though - I also suggest this freewheel in conjunction with the Victory for superb shifting.



Take care,

-Kurt
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Old 04-27-07, 08:27 PM
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They'd work fine. You need to over shift slightly and then return the lever slightly just like the Suntours, so they will shift similarly, but not as cleanly. Even the very best Campy from back in the day would not shift even remotely as well as modern Campy deraileurs, but it is all subjective. Mount 'em, and use 'em.
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Old 08-16-07, 09:50 PM
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I'm a rank amateur, so I hope you'll forgive my query: how exactly do you adjust the B-angle of the rear derailleur? I have an old Victory unit on my 1980s Bianchi and simply cannot figure it out. Any help would be most welcome!

Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
As for the rear, Campagnolo Victory performs excellent over narrow-range freewheels, due mainly in part to the adjustable (but once adjusted, fixed-position) B-angle of the derailer. You can set the front pulley wheel very close to the cogs (and quite a ways in front) on a narrow range freewheel, and recieve superb shifting. For that matter, it also provides excellent chain wrap). See below photo ('87 Victory S3 shown):

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Old 08-16-07, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
I'm a rank amateur, so I hope you'll forgive my query: how exactly do you adjust the B-angle of the rear derailleur? I have an old Victory unit on my 1980s Bianchi and simply cannot figure it out. Any help would be most welcome!
You remove the derailer from the dropout, then pull the small ring + stop piece out of it's slot in the upper body of the derailer, then replace it in the desired slot position.

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Old 08-17-07, 06:24 AM
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Wow, thanks for the info! I'd searched the web high and low, and couldn't find anything. I never would have guessed that that's how you do it.

Another question, if I may: there's no barrel for adjusting the tension of the cable. On mine, anyway. Was there originally? How do you adjust the tension, otherwise?
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Old 08-17-07, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
Another question, if I may: there's no barrel for adjusting the tension of the cable. On mine, anyway. Was there originally? How do you adjust the tension, otherwise?
Same way you do on any other good 'ol, traditional friction-shifting bike - pull the cable tight as hell, and bolt it down!

Campagnolo did offer an adapted cable adjuster later on though, but for purposes of Syncro indexed shifting.

Take care,

-Kurt
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Old 08-17-07, 11:38 AM
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Victory rd

I like the Victory. It has a very solid no nonsense feel. That said it still is below a high end or even mid range Suntour of the same era. It's not quite as fast and not as positive either. You might not even notice the shift and readjust thing ... it's so minor anyway, but the Victory will still feel a bit like a step down from a Superbe Suntour. For some bikes, I'd still choose the Victory ... like my Italian Gios that I downloaded photos of today.

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Old 08-17-07, 01:09 PM
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I've wanted to try a Victory ever since I read Frank Berto's upgrading book. Not many of them show up on eBay. That may just mean that they never sold many of them. They had no snob appeal. There was one a couple of weeks ago from a local seller, but the top bolt and associated parts were missing.
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Old 08-17-07, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by PaPa View Post
I have a matching set of Campagnolo Victory '87-'88? derailleurs, so I was pondering whether or not to try them. I'm used to, and quite fond of the high-end Suntour Superbe and Sprint stuff, so was wondering how these would compare. Would greatly appreciate user experiences. I'll be using Suntour's first gen bar-cons.

This is just a hunch, since I have exactly zero experience with Campy, though I just bought a 1984 Nuovo Record to try out. The Suntour 20-year patent on their slant parallelogram rear ders expired in 1984. I'm thinking Campy had already stolen the design and had a bunch of "Pat 84" rear ders ready to market, so I'm expecting anything Campy from 1984 on was probably an improvement over pre-1984 Campy. Just a hunch FWIW.
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Old 08-17-07, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Dirtdrop View Post
I've wanted to try a Victory ever since I read Frank Berto's upgrading book. Not many of them show up on eBay. That may just mean that they never sold many of them. They had no snob appeal. There was one a couple of weeks ago from a local seller, but the top bolt and associated parts were missing.
Dirtdrop, I have one with replacement pulley wheels, if you are interested. Let me know.

-Kurt
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Old 08-17-07, 10:03 PM
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They are a good, solid derailleur, with absolutely no collector appeal. They were originally positioned between nuovo record and super record, and I personally think that the whole grouppo is an esthetic improvement over the older stuff, but I like the way that both old and new look. The function is nearly identical, because except for minor changes, the Victory derailleur is a nuovo record with a facelift. Hold 'em up together and see.
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Old 08-17-07, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by OrangeOkie View Post
This is just a hunch, since I have exactly zero experience with Campy, though I just bought a 1984 Nuovo Record to try out. The Suntour 20-year patent on their slant parallelogram rear ders expired in 1984. I'm thinking Campy had already stolen the design and had a bunch of "Pat 84" rear ders ready to market, so I'm expecting anything Campy from 1984 on was probably an improvement over pre-1984 Campy. Just a hunch FWIW.
I was about to say.... I have two words for you "slant parallelogram" makes suntour better... unless of course you run corncobs like kurt a slant parallelogram makes a HUGE difference.... Campy seemed to suffer from the Schwinn syndrome in the mid 80s ("we'll tell YOU what works). They actually didn't introduce a slant parallelogram till 1988 (at least not to the consumers) and even still the record group did not have a slant parallelogram at this point!... How foolish. The result? Campy was dropping behind REALLY fast till they picked up the slant parallelogram and were forced to catch up with indexing development. That is my take on it anyway. a 1986 shimano 6 speed SIS system shift beautifully, did campy have an indexing system in 1986 that could even touch shimano or suntour? I don't think so. I see the chorus group as Campagnolo's signal that they had got their game back in 1988 and I have used nuovo, super, victory, c-record and chorus. I haven't used superbe derailleurs but I have used many a suntour, even the cheep arx derailleurs shift better than nuovo or super record in my opinion. Super and nuovo are solid and durable though and there is nothing like them for aesthetic value.
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Old 08-17-07, 10:58 PM
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I have the old campy universal indexing system on two super record derailleur equipped bikes. This consists of a stiffer cable, a barrel adjuster for the rear derailleur, and a set of indexed levers. They, ah, suck. But it is an interesting piece of history.
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Old 08-17-07, 11:48 PM
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One of these days I'm going to try to get this Simplex SX610 to index. It's got a barrel adjuster. Maybe tomorrow. The bike's on the stand anyway.

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Old 08-18-07, 01:12 AM
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Cuda,

What an answer! I've had two Victory derailleurs on two bikes over my life and the first shifted beautifully; the second, well I remembered how well the first did.... Now I know why.

DG1
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Old 08-18-07, 04:07 AM
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Suntour Campy

I don't agree with any blanket statement putting down old Campy equipment. Let me give you an example.... In 1981 I bought a beautiful brown Team Fuji which I upgraded with Suntour Superbe brakes right in the shop when I took delivery ($50 extra making $550 plus tax). It had regular Suntour ARX derailleurs. I rode the bike steady maybe an average of 10 miles a day until 1984 (estimated mileage about 9,000 total miles). The chain was cleaned regularly and the bike was maintained well. Riding practices were conservative with no cross chaining, no rough roads, and a daily wipe down. The ARX rear derailleur had to be replaced. It was just plain worn out.... pivot pins, body, springs, jockey wheels. I replaced it with the unfortunate Tech line of Suntours which wore out in another year (defective body seals making a good idea bad).

Now I can take any old Suntour Superbe or Cyclone rd and clean it up and it will run fine with new jockey wheels. I can do the same with Shimano Dura Ace or even 105. I certainly can do that with anything Campy ever made from Nouvo Record to Victory or even Triomphe (not Valentino however). Campy was always pure quality mixed with ageing engineering. Instead of saying bad shifting forever, I would say predictable fairly good shifting forever. It never will be great but it doesn't degrade much with the passing of the years either. I can't say that for lower end Suntour or Shimano or Simplex.

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Old 08-18-07, 01:06 PM
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You are pretty much correct; campy does last a lot longer. But...I have a drawer in my garage just for worn out campy derailleurs - it takes a lot of miles but the pivots do eventually wear out. Seems to be especially bad for the first generation of the newer stuff (after nuovo/super record). I have two rod-driven rear derailleurs (Croce), both of which are worn to the point of junk, especially if you try to make 'em index.
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Old 08-18-07, 05:19 PM
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80's Campy -- why index?

Trying to get 80's Campy to index must be an excersize in learning to live with disappointment. I know people who have done it and claim it's not so bad, but I always suspect it's like the couple down the street who are wealthy and good looking but are hiding a horid marriage behind the nicely polished front door. I choose to just go with friction rather than getting into it with Campy indexing.

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