Another Phony Cinelli?
07-08-07, 09:37 AM
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Another Phony Cinelli?
I'm not a Cinelli expert by any means, but this doesn't look like any Cinelli I've ever seen:
https://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Italian-...QQcmdZViewItem
Cinelli lugs & bottom bracket, but is it a Cinelli frame?
https://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Italian-...QQcmdZViewItem
Cinelli lugs & bottom bracket, but is it a Cinelli frame?
07-08-07, 10:16 AM
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It does look like a Cinelli, but not a Super Corsa. It is built with Cromor which is fine but near the bottom of the Columbus totem pole. I have seen a few Cinelli in the same vein and I believe that they are entry level bikes from the mid 90's. I think the seller's story is fishy. The parts look very nice, but the cranks and hubs are way to early for that bike and same with the brake levers and hoods which don't go with those calipers. They look new, which is good, but they also look like they were just put on the bike and not hanging on the wall from back in the day. I guess it doesn't matter, but the parts are probably worth more than the frame and fork. It looks like a Pegoretti before Pegoretti!
vjp
vjp
07-08-07, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by jet sanchEz
It is a beauty!
07-08-07, 11:29 AM
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I still don't think it's a Cinelli. Every modern steel Cinelli I've seen has a sloping, internally lugged fork crown and has the distinctive fastback seat stays.
07-08-07, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by skinny
You've never seen a Centurion Cinelli?
07-08-07, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Old Fat Guy
I don't consider a Centurion to be a Cinelli. It is a 'Centurion Cinelli', not a Cino Cinelli.
07-08-07, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by skinny
Did Cino Cinelli actually ever braze a frame himself?
07-08-07, 02:04 PM
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Well, your point still isn't made, frankly. You seem to have confused stating a fact with making a point. While he owned the company, Cino Cinelli operated a frame building atelier that had a very high quality, relatively small output - in Olympic years not even sufficient to take outside orders. The frames were built in a single shop, supervised by Cino, and not outsourced. There was a "B" Model that was also of high quality. The bikes built by Cinelli's shop may not even have been money makers, but may have been "loss leaders" to boost the sale of Cinelli stems, bars, and frame parts. They had an extremely high reputation among top riders. Stradivarious didn't build every piece of every violin that came out of his shop either, by the way, but you can believe he had the final say regarding what met his standards and what didn't. To say that the bikes built while Cino was in charge and those built after the company was sold are all "Cino Cinellis" is really just a matter of semantics. To say that there's no qualitative difference between those bikes and the one in the above photos is to intentionally miss the point Otis and Old Fat Guy were making to merely score a sematical point of your own. Point scored indeed - but if you really don't think there's a useful distinction to be made between pre- and post-Cino bikes (and if you really don't see a difference between, say, a mid-60s Masi Special and a current aluminum-framed one), then I don't think you've scored any points in the area of vintage bike discernment. What the real distinctions are is a matter for an interesting discussion, but that discussion isn't really promoted by clever zingers.
(I do realize that many post-Cino Cinelli's are very nice bikes, BTW, and I'd love to own one of them. But they don't all meet that earlier standard, as the above bike evidences, and I think that fact merits mention.)
(I do realize that many post-Cino Cinelli's are very nice bikes, BTW, and I'd love to own one of them. But they don't all meet that earlier standard, as the above bike evidences, and I think that fact merits mention.)
07-08-07, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Picchio Special
Well, your point still isn't made, frankly. You seem to have confused stating a fact with making a point. While he owned the company, Cino Cinelli operated a frame building atelier that had a very high quality, relatively small output - in Olympic years not even sufficient to take outside orders. The frames were built in a single shop, supervised by Cino, and not outsourced. There was a "B" Model that was also of high quality. The bikes built by Cinelli's shop may not even have been money makers, but may have been "loss leaders" to boost the sale of Cinelli stems, bars, and frame parts. They had an extremely high reputation among top riders. Stradivarious didn't build every piece of every violin that came out of his shop either, by the way, but you can believe he had the final say regarding what met his standards and what didn't. To say that the bikes built while Cino was in charge and those built after the company was sold are all "Cino Cinellis" is really just a matter of semantics. To say that there's no qualitative difference between those bikes and the one in the above photos is to intentionally miss the point Otis and Old Fat Guy were making to merely score a sematical point of your own. Point scored indeed - but if you really don't think there's a useful distinction to be made between pre- and post-Cino bikes (and if you really don't see a difference between, say, a mid-60s Masi Special and a current aluminum-framed one), then I don't think you've scored any points in the area of vintage bike discernment. What the real distinctions are is a matter for an interesting discussion, but that discussion isn't really promoted by clever zingers.
(I do realize that many post-Cino Cinelli's are very nice bikes, BTW, and I'd love to own one of them. But they don't all meet that earlier standard, as the above bike evidences, and I think that fact merits mention.)
(I do realize that many post-Cino Cinelli's are very nice bikes, BTW, and I'd love to own one of them. But they don't all meet that earlier standard, as the above bike evidences, and I think that fact merits mention.)
And I'm still not convinced that the bike in question is a Cinelli branded bicycle. Lugs and decals alone do not make it a Cinelli.
07-08-07, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Picchio Special
To say that the bikes built while Cino was in charge and those built after the company was sold are all "Cino Cinellis" is really just a matter of semantics.
07-08-07, 02:22 PM
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Well, I love Cinellis, I've had a 63, a 69, a 75, and my 84, which is the only one I've kept, even though it was made after Cino sold out. It is certainly equal if not "better" than the others I've owned. But I've never seen a Cinelli that looks like the one shown here. It may be one, but it certainly has a Japanese look, and an inferior, unbecoming example of a great name. I hope they didn't stoop so low just to make a buck. It would be interesting to know if the "flying C" is engraved in the fork crown and stay tops or just stickers.
07-08-07, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by skinny
My point exactly. Oh, and try to relax. It's not a religion.
Made my day.
And some of us actually enjoy taking this stuff seriously - doesn't mean we're not having fun. (And did it occur to you that you might have gotten a more "relaxed" response from me if you hadn't thrown my invitation to you to elaborate your point back in my face?)
07-08-07, 02:29 PM
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OK, I take it all back. Looking at the current Cinelli offerings, anything is possible!
https://www.cinelli.it/scripts/prodot...=EN&IdBici=223
https://www.cinelli.it/scripts/prodot...=EN&IdBici=223
07-08-07, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Picchio Special
A three-sentence response! How cool!
Made my day.
And some of us actually enjoy taking this stuff seriously - doesn't mean we're not having fun. (And did it occur to you that you might have gotten a more "relaxed" response from me if you hadn't thrown my invitation to you to elaborate your point back in my face?)
Made my day.
And some of us actually enjoy taking this stuff seriously - doesn't mean we're not having fun. (And did it occur to you that you might have gotten a more "relaxed" response from me if you hadn't thrown my invitation to you to elaborate your point back in my face?)
07-08-07, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by skinny
you're probably not coming off as unbalanced to anyone but me
