do frames "harden" with age?
 

I have a 70's Raliegh Superbe(Suntour Superbe equipment). I've had it since new. It rides like a rock. Very little shock absorbtion. Does steel harden with age? Does a bike loose its lively feel with age? I can remember riding my brothers Cinelli back in the 70's and that bike had alot of "life" to it.

I'm not to fond of the new bikes being made and was thinking of looking for a vintage frame. But then I wonder if it will have a decent ride. My thought is to get an old Raliegh with a longer wheelbase. I had an old Raliegh Compitition before this bike and it was long and rode "soft". I like that soft ride especially on the roads here in the Chicago area, pothole city.

Any thoughts?

Steel frames don't harden with age, but our bodies do get more sensitive to jolts and jarring as we age. Probably the best way to mitigate the problem is to mount fatter tires and use a little less air in the tires. Balloon tired bikes like "beach cruisers" have silky smooth rides, but those tires also have greater rolling resistance, so you have to choose a satisfactory compromise between skinny high pressure tires with low rolling resistance but little shock absorption, and fat tires with higher rolling resistance and good shock absorption.

Stan,

You're right about the answer being tires, but fatter tires does not necessarily equal greater rolling resistance.

big chainring,

Is that the made-in-Japan Raleigh Superbe with the really sweet gold finish (my presumption), or a converted 3 speed Superbe? If the former, you should have no trouble finding 700c tires in 25 or 28 width that will help prevent the jarring, and not be so large as to make the bike look silly. If the latter, just don't inflate the tires quite as much.

Ironically a 1970's bike probably came with larger tires, 27 x 1 1/4. I've found that proper size tires are the ticket to great riding.

According to popular opinion, steel frames soften, rather than harden with age. The buddy that gave me my Tommasini said he'd stopped riding it since it had "gone soft". He rides a CF frame now.

There's some info on work-hardening here. I'd love to hear what an actual mettalurgist has to say.

There is also a lot of variation between types of steel used. My Marinoni which is SLX is quite stiff while other steel frame I've riden are softer. There are a lot of variables with frames, builder, materials, ect...

Yep, the gold finish one. Got alot of looks when I raced that bike. The gold lacquer finish started looking bad with scrapes and chips, so I stipped the gold off and its now a chrome bike. I'm using 700 x 28 tires now. They are really hard riding. I'm kind of tempted to get some tubulars. They always seamed to ride nicer. Come winter I put 700 x 35 tire on the front. Thats the ride I like.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/4...26108UcN27Zs3U

I would maybe worry about 'hydrogen embritlement', after the frame was chromed.

The plater should always 'bakeout', the hydrogen after the plating operation;

It can become a real problem if not done.


Regards,
J T

Work hardening involves a permanent deformation of the metal; when the frame flexes under pedaling torque, it flexes back so frames won't work harden with age.

It could be that the inside of a "soft" frame has rusted out enough of a degree that there is less metal to resist flexing and creates a flexier frame, or it could be that fatigue induced microcracking has set in and reduced the stiffness of the tubes but has not formed visible cracks, or a combination of the two.

Well said.
Steel frames "soften" = urban myth. A well-taken-care-of and well-maintained frame shouldn't "soften," at least not without a good half-century or so of regular use. The guy who gave away the Tommasini because it had "gone soft" was frankly a little soft in the head. A lot of times, it's the components that wear or aren't adequately maintained or are out of date, creating the impression that the frame has "softened." Riders who race a frame hard for a season often report "softening" of a bike for this reason, when a new chain and freewheel and some routine maintenance might firm that frame right back up.

Stiffness of the steel is not the same as strength. Work hardening would not change the stiffness, unless as noted above, the thing was starting to crack. A rider getting heavier and/or flabbier with age would make a difference. Different seats, tires, and wheels might make a difference. Having ridden other bikes in the meantime could make a big difference.

Yeah, I think he was lured by the plastic wunderframe, but considering that I'm not as young as I once was, a "soft" frame sounds like a very nice ride.

He's gonna take a Scattante in his shorts when he sees what I'm doing with it. ;)

Ya, so you are aging just fine, no weight gain, no stress from kids and a lousy job. Whats your point punk. Why I outta, To the moon Alice, to the moon!

It still looks really nice, but there was something special about that gold finish...

What kind of tires are you using, and what pressure do you have them pumped to? If you're still using the original rims, that's the only thing that would logically be responsible for the difference you feel. I'm thinking that if you can find skinwalls, it would make for a nicer ride than the all rubber you have on there now.

I'm using Continental tires pumped to 80psi in the rear and only about 50psi in front. Its the shock from the front fork that gets to me.
I recall in the 70's two brothers came from Belgium to race in the Chicago area, the De Jonkerin bros.(sorry, terrible spelling I'm sure). They had the full campy racing bikes but the forks had been replaced with forks with alot of rake. Lots of cobblestone and bad roads in Belgium. Might be a good solution in Chicago too. I get into stretches of road that are just terrible. And my body cant absorb the bumps like it used to.

In the 80s Bill Farrell (of Fit Kit fame) found a limitation of his cleat alignment devices was the alignment of the actual frame. He then set about making a shop quality (as opposed to frame shop quality) frame alignment system and in so doing, found that guys who said "my frame went soft after a year of racing" actually had frames out of alignment after a year of racing and its attendent crashes, transport mishaps, etc. For a few guys he realigned their frames and got reports back that the frame was "alive" again.

This did not sit well with the guys who wanted to tell their wives "I need a new frame every year, they go soft..." These were the days when you got a new frame and transferred your Campy stuff over to it, because the Campy never wore out or became obsolete.

Later

Mel

That sounds like a very plausible theory, if the rear end is misaligned then you're always putting torque onto the road in the wrong direction and correction with the front end.

Many a monday spent with the frame in the vise after being mangled on sunday.;) It's all about alignment.

I find it hard to believe that steel frames harden (work-harden) or soften significantly (fatigue) unless they are repeatedly flexed beyond expected limits.

Granted, steel can work harden and steel can fatigue, and same for its alloys. But good design would have the frame stiff enought to resist flexing to large deflections.

Road Fan

I ride a 47 year old Legnano and can attest - components make up a major part of the ride quality.

I had 22mm clinchers on Ambrosio Evolutions on last year (120psi) and switched to NOS Nisi Moncalieri with some cheap tubulars (also 120psi) and respoked to 3-cross from radial with double butted - and changed my headset to a '70s Nuovo Record - went from Cinelli Giro bars to a Nitto Noodle - the bike feels completely different.

I have a feeling that with 80 and 50psi in your tires you're going to be hurting your wheels on the bumpy stuff, unless you have a very wide profile tire. Which kind of negates the purpose of a racing-geometry frame.

It may be time for a dedicated bike for this kind of terrain!

I don't take my racer out on the rough stuff if I can help it.

It's like taking a Ferrari camping - what you really need is a Jeep.

No. The things that can change a bike's feel are the tires, the tubes, the saddle, and the bar wrap...the contact points.

I've gotten spoiled by the feel of gel wrap and cork wrap tape. When I ride a bike that has the old style cloth or plastic wrap, it doesn't feel very good.

And of course, PSI matters. Last week, I thought the streets in my neighborhood must have been repaved. It felt like I was riding on velvet. When I got home, I checked my PSI. That bike had not been on the road in months. Instead of 90 PSI, the tires were at 50 PSI.

So, I put them at 90 PSI. Sure enough, the neighborhood streets went back to feeling like "Berlin 1946".

as mentioned before put on some larger tires. 27 to 32 mm tires are as fast as skinny 23mm tires and actually "faster" over rougher non perfect pavement (which is what you ride on 90% of the time). There are plenty of high quality tires in these sizes as well...