Dwaine Alberts

Anyone interested

Markk900, Redneckwes, Balindamood, Miamijim, Eyeseeu and all others

I just didn't want to let this dead horse go. So while I was jacking around on Ebay I came across a possible clue on date codes and Peugeot. Here it goes and bear with me. I was looking for Peugeot parts online and ran across an item up for bid on Ebay item # 110183120515 L.J. Simplex rear derailer 1969. They list pics of the derailer front and back. On the backside it has an 1 and below it 69. The seller has a bike shop and website. It looks as though they are dating the part as 1969 based on the 69 casting on the rear of the derailer.

Here is my thoughts.
1) original owner of my bike says its 40 years old
2) my drop down code is 072330.....note (7) stretching a bit maybe
3) my simplex derailer is stamped on the rear 1 and below it 67
4) the only thing(s) that look very obvious aftermarket on my bike are handle bar neck and pedals...... I think mind you............ I am on a learning curve but willing to learn.

Now could that 67 point to a possible date like the Ebay seller has listed. If that Simplex is still the original maybe we are getting something or maybe not. Anyone dare to look at the back of their derailers and see a possible clue. Maybe I been pissing in the wind and I am now all wet!

Dwaine

Dwaine likes beer......... suddenly his job got easier, His boss seemed friendlier, his wife looked hot and ther girl at the end of the bar got prettier!

balindamood

2-72 for my '72.

stronglight

Yes, that would be the date code: 1-69. A used Simplex prestige derailleur "might" be worth as much as $10. They have delrin plastic bodies which simply did not survive long in regular use, and the plastic becomes more brittle with age when exposed to the elements. You can probably find one NOS/NIB for around $30-$40. They were among the most widely sold components on mid-range Peugeots and Raleighs well into the 1970s so there are old bike shops with cases of them still sitting on their back room shelves under decades of dust. The Buy-It-Now price must have been something the seller dreamed up after that last hit on his crack pipe.

John E

Sorry, I cannot help, since I bought my Peugeot new as a bare frame when I worked at a Peugeot/Nishiki dealership. It has had neither Simplex derailleurs, cottered cranks, nor steel rims.

miamijim

Yes, you would be stretching it.

T-Mar

I have 3 Simplex derailleurs. Only one has the stamping, a "72" on an orphaned Prestige. My other Prestige, on a known 1973 model, has no stamping. There is also no stamping on my LJ4000, which is from a 1977 model.

This subject has come up previously and it has been suggested, that while it does appear to be a date stamp, it may not represent the the actual production year, but rather the year of design changes. If I recall correctly, the same numbers were cropping up repeatedly, with 72 being the dominant one. If the stamping represented an actual production year, then you would expect to find a full range of numbers, especially for the early 1970s, when production and usage of the Prestige was at it's peak. This did not appear to be the case. Still, I do not now how large the sample size was and it could just have been co-incidence. It certainly wouldn't hurt to investigate again.

The other thing to consider is thaty even if it is a production year of the derailleur, it does not necessarily represent the model year of the biycle. In Peugeot's case, the Prestige was used on just about every model except the PA/PR/PX10 and even that depended on the model year. While stocking only two derailleurs greatly simplifies the parts system, it plays havoc with stock rotation due to the large volumes in use. The French had certainly suffered with quality control during the early 1970s, so one can expect problems their stock rotation would not be nearly as efficient as the Japanese. So that Prestige may have been pushed ot the back of the shelf or had new shipments dumped in the bin on top of it several times, delaying it use, possibly by years. However, a stamp should imply an oldest possible date.

And then there is problem of replacement parts. Normally this is not a big concern, but the Prestige had probably the poorest track record for reliability. I remember replacing lots of them.

The bottom line is that while it better than nothing, using the stampings on a Prestige to date a Peugeot is probably the worst scenario, due to the potential stock rotation and reliability issues.

Dwaine Alberts

stretching maybe or maybe not.......l liken it to bike 101 science and theory. If we have some folks seeing the same thing on unrestored or saved from the dumpster old bikes... well then the theory has some possible relevance. What if we see these numbers like myself and Belindamood. Doesn't the theory appear to be a possible production build pattern with this bike manufacturer. So..... we can be na sayers or look to see if we have more validation or nonvalidation. This would then give us a further direction forward or backwards to go.

I came to this theory by looking at a bike's manufacturing the same way the UAW used to build the automobiles and muscle cars in the 60's and early 70's. Many parts on cars were left with a stamping. And as far as GM production went these stamping became unique to each plant that built the cars is some cases. Cowl tags were stamped in Atlanta with 2 digit codes but not in Towanda. Some have thought this unusal stampings related to time and shift. Parts with the engine, engine components and drive train, chassis's were all date casted and or stamped to identify their relationship with a specific made automobile. Look at the cars in the early 60' 70's....... heck even the tail light and turn signal lenses had part number associated along with a 2 digit number for the year of the automobile they were built for. Unless the french bike builders had something more creative then we gotta start somewhere to understand this unknown Peugeot parts/stamping identifying madness. Anyway I have a 70 plus year old guy that tells me a bit of timeline that keeps me wondering. I will hopefully see him today. I hope others take the time to look at their factory derailers. Anway food for thought is good for the mind and spirit.

Thanks all
Dwaine

Dwaine Alberts

T-Mar

The French had certainly suffered with quality control during the early 1970s, so one can expect problems their stock rotation would not be nearly as efficient as the Japanese. So that Prestige may have been pushed ot the back of the shelf or had new shipments dumped in the bin on top of it several times, delaying it use, possibly by years. However, a stamp should imply an oldest possible date.

Reply

Yes I understand completely, GM had the same issues when building engine components in the 60's 70's. In that scenario it was not uncommon to see an engine builder have different casting dates on heads etc. when reaching in a parts bin. Usually they were not that far apart. But autombiles were slightly more complex in manufacturing. GM of the USA was horrible in records but the GM plant in Canada did a great job with records. You can actually contact GM of Canada and get a copy of your build sheet today for a mininal fee. Without a build sheet certain things were open for questioning and discussion but many things had a common denominator. Today the car restoration reseach folks have been able to identify patterns in parts, plant stamping codes etc. I mean down to the times when GM would have strikes and dates would widen passed on production and lack of production in certain plants. A derailer can be some sort of starting point in theory.
Again, food for thought is good for the mind and spirit.

Cheers
Dwaine

miamijim

Dwaine. GM was good to a certain point and not so good. Can you get be a built sheet for my '70 Corvette? No. I have an A.I.M. for it but as I've found my car was built to both '69 and '70 A.I.M. specifications. And yes, I do have different date codes on my heads but both are within 6 months, which is the generaly accepted time frame for a NCRS correct restoration, of the build tag.

BTW my block isnt stamped.




Peugeots are Peugeots. Sometimes the best you can do is get a date to within a few years.

Dwaine Alberts

Jim,



Thanks, I don't have the vette but I like my 1966 SS Chevelle. Interesting you block is not stamped but that was GM and all GM plants were slightly different with some proceedures. As far as unstamping your block that would have been a no no in the job responsibilities. That guy must have left his shift early or something. Now if you wanted a build sheet. Again, the neighbors of the North AKA Canada GM plant can and does produce those for a mininal fee for cars built there.

cheers
Dwaine

T-Mar

Dwaine, I'm not trying to be a nay sayer, in fact, in my previous post I encouraged the new investagation and provided the data form my Simplex. However, I thought you should be aware of previous efforts and the possible pitfalls.

Specifically regarding the stock rotation issue, we can look at the my two unmarked samples which came from bicycles of known vintage. If the markings are date stamps, and we assume Simplex used them as early as 1969, why are they not on derailleurs as late as 1972 and 1977? Are my derailleurs actually earlier than 1969? Are they replacements? Did Simplex just forget to stamp them? Or did Simplex only stamp those that incorporated design changes, pending depletion of the old stock? It's all speculation until we get a lot more data.

By the way, a neighbor has an Elvish with one of the final versions of the Prestige (the one with the formed, sheet metal nameplate/cover). I cleaned it up and looked all for a date code, hoping to determining when this version was introduced. It had nothing either.

Dwaine Alberts

T-Mar

Hey, it is and I mean all good and fun. With these threads I just learned my back rim is an AVA with a possible date stamp (2) AVA (66) from Miamijim. Then to find out the front rim is a RIGIDA and most likely a replacement from the 80's with no date stamp. Only thing simular to front and back rims are the hubs which both of mine say ATOM with no date codes. Jim sent me a copy of an 80's hub that was date stamped but I think it was a RIGIDA with ATOM nowhere to be found. Go figure.

In my case I think one original retired owner can close a few loop holes and my particular bike. But again maybe not. Which I am going to stop by and ask him. If I can catch him at home. Anyway.... this is all good and I enjoy the hunt for knowledge or understanding. Thanks for sharing.

Dwaine

tjspiel

This stuff is kind of fun. I went through it with my wife's Peugeot and settled on a likely range given a number of clues, including a bit of scant information from the original owner. Now I'm excited to go home and check the derailleur.

Truth be told though, I like the fact that there's some ambiguity about the model and date.

I have an older home that has a switch mounted at eye level near the back door. Along with the switch was a little red light that would turn on when you flipped the switch. What exactly was being turned on was a complete mystery. I loved that switch. I even replaced it with a new one so it would look decent. I'd alternately tell people that it turned on the neighbors porch light or that it's sole purpose was to turn on the little red light.

In practice, I left it off because I was worried that there was a live wire someplace that shouldn't be live.

Well this past summer I finally traced where the wires went when I decided to replace the switch with an outlet for something we were mounting on the wall. It dead ended near the furnace so I'm guessing the switch was a convenient way to turn on/off the humidifier that used to be there.

Knowing is not nearly as fun.

tjspiel

No date code on my Simplex RD

markk900

Dwaine: sorry to say no date code on my known original Simplex (not the one in the photo - I replaced the original earlier this year).

I must agree with tjspiel though - while I love the chase and playing with esoteric details, ultimately I am not sure I want to know exactly! I live in a 135 year old house so I have lots of mysteries to amuse me.

Mark

ps....nice SS!

Kommisar89

Dangit. I ran out to the garage to check the codes on the Simplex Prestige on my UO8 but the danged letters are too small. Maybe I can "borrow" my wife's bifocals without her noticing. I'd never live that down

Dwaine Alberts

Its all fun and good. Thanks for the comment on the SS Mark.

Dwaine