Mystery vintage track frame
11-20-07, 04:08 PM
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Hi Violto,
I've been reading your thread with interest. I think your frame shows all the signs of a 1930's Australian frame. I have a couple of Malvern Star frames from the 30's that are very similar to your frame. My bikes were fitted with British BSA components. I notice that the stamping on the seat lug is 46371X. That seems to be a rather high frame number if you were a frame builder and were keeping track of the number of frames you had made. I wonder if the 46 is refering to the year of manufacture?
One of my frames was definately built in 1937 - 2 years prior to the 2nd World War. I would say that bike building was not a priority during the war but production would have re-commenced at the end of the war. Any frame building material, such as lugs were probably taken out of storage and used. I doubt whether new lugs would have been imported from England so close to the end of the war. A framebuilder would have used what was at hand.
The oiler hole in the bottom bracket is interesting - not drilled and no oiler attached. I also have a 1950's frame with a similar BB. The oiler hole was left un-tapped as it was a track bike. It was worked on often and the use of an oiler was unnecessary and would the oiler be banned as it protruded and could have been dangerous in a fall?
The rear brake bridge that attaches the rear brake and mudguards is a standard fitting that could be found on track bikes and roadsters alike. It was common for bike riders to have one bike that was used for everything - racing track on the weekend and riding to work during the week. Brakes could be removed easily.
The lack of frame fittings such as water bottle bosses was just the 'norm' - they just wern't around at the time. If you wanted to carry a water bottle you would fit a wire 'basket' to the handlebars. around the 50's you saw the emergence of more clamped-on fittings. It was important for frames to be exposed to the least amount of heating as possible.
The head tube lugs look to be standard items that were personalised. I would guess that the framebuilder added the scallops to the lug profile with a round file. Quite a simple process but it does look good.
There were many frame builders in Australia and I can't put my finger on the builder of your frame but, as has been discussed, someone may recognise the number pattern / scheme as it suggests a large production run.
Best of luck with your search,
Gary
I've been reading your thread with interest. I think your frame shows all the signs of a 1930's Australian frame. I have a couple of Malvern Star frames from the 30's that are very similar to your frame. My bikes were fitted with British BSA components. I notice that the stamping on the seat lug is 46371X. That seems to be a rather high frame number if you were a frame builder and were keeping track of the number of frames you had made. I wonder if the 46 is refering to the year of manufacture?
One of my frames was definately built in 1937 - 2 years prior to the 2nd World War. I would say that bike building was not a priority during the war but production would have re-commenced at the end of the war. Any frame building material, such as lugs were probably taken out of storage and used. I doubt whether new lugs would have been imported from England so close to the end of the war. A framebuilder would have used what was at hand.
The oiler hole in the bottom bracket is interesting - not drilled and no oiler attached. I also have a 1950's frame with a similar BB. The oiler hole was left un-tapped as it was a track bike. It was worked on often and the use of an oiler was unnecessary and would the oiler be banned as it protruded and could have been dangerous in a fall?
The rear brake bridge that attaches the rear brake and mudguards is a standard fitting that could be found on track bikes and roadsters alike. It was common for bike riders to have one bike that was used for everything - racing track on the weekend and riding to work during the week. Brakes could be removed easily.
The lack of frame fittings such as water bottle bosses was just the 'norm' - they just wern't around at the time. If you wanted to carry a water bottle you would fit a wire 'basket' to the handlebars. around the 50's you saw the emergence of more clamped-on fittings. It was important for frames to be exposed to the least amount of heating as possible.
The head tube lugs look to be standard items that were personalised. I would guess that the framebuilder added the scallops to the lug profile with a round file. Quite a simple process but it does look good.
There were many frame builders in Australia and I can't put my finger on the builder of your frame but, as has been discussed, someone may recognise the number pattern / scheme as it suggests a large production run.
Best of luck with your search,
Gary
Last edited by Gary Fountain; 11-21-07 at 12:48 AM.
11-20-07, 04:28 PM
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Gary,
Thank you so much for the detailed reply. It's difficult to find information on Australian manufacturers as there were so many 'backyard' operators back then. Hillman, Hillbrick, Dean woods are probably the most notable and prevalent marques of modern times but before the 50's, info becomes a little harder to find.
There is a bicycle museum in Canberra that I can send photos of the bike to have it placed and I may have to do just that. I was hoping to find at least the maker's name but if the lugs and tubing were sourced as available, it might be difficult to use them to identify it.
I'm thinking your right - the serial numbers on the seat-tube and BB might be the best bet, the year could be '46 and the 371 might be the number of frames made in that year? seems like quite a large number for an Australian factory of the time? I hope it was a large run as it would make it easier to place.
If I find the maker's name, I'm going to re-do the decals to match but the paint job will stay the same.
Cheers,
Tim
Thank you so much for the detailed reply. It's difficult to find information on Australian manufacturers as there were so many 'backyard' operators back then. Hillman, Hillbrick, Dean woods are probably the most notable and prevalent marques of modern times but before the 50's, info becomes a little harder to find.
There is a bicycle museum in Canberra that I can send photos of the bike to have it placed and I may have to do just that. I was hoping to find at least the maker's name but if the lugs and tubing were sourced as available, it might be difficult to use them to identify it.
I'm thinking your right - the serial numbers on the seat-tube and BB might be the best bet, the year could be '46 and the 371 might be the number of frames made in that year? seems like quite a large number for an Australian factory of the time? I hope it was a large run as it would make it easier to place.
If I find the maker's name, I'm going to re-do the decals to match but the paint job will stay the same.
Cheers,
Tim
11-20-07, 05:36 PM
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It's definitely an Aussie bike from 30s to 50s.
Quite a few Australian makers kept the integrated headsets on some of their frames for quite a while (usually the lower to medium level models). And I've seen those dropouts and/or forks on quite a few different frames from quite a few different makers. I think a couple of my bikes from different builders have the same type of serial numbers on both the bottom bracket and seat lug, so that doesn't really help either (I will check when I get home in a few days). I also have the same oil port on a 1954 Malvern Star coronation ladies bike (yours is threaded isn't it?). But that head lug pattern doesn't ring any bells. Many manufacturers shaped their lugs differently for the odd bicycle here and there for whatever reason (customizing, boredom..), and I've only been in the game a short while and wouldn't call myself an expert. So....
If I were to have a guess I'd say it was a local Brisbane frame. It seems that every time I find a bike of similar vintage in Melbourne it is from a local builder. They didn't often travel too far.
For further info, check out Collectable Cycles and Canberra Bicycle Museum. Contact one of those, they should be able to point you in the right direction.
If you need new bearings for that headset I can put you in contact with someone that has them (they are an odd size). And there was a seller on eBay from Brisbane selling the oiler ports that screw in to that frame. I can't remember if they all sold or not but I can give you their eBay name so you can contact them if you'd like.
Anyway, congrats on buying a local frame! Be sure to post the finished bike in the Aussie Track thread
.
Last edited by Wotan; 11-20-07 at 05:45 PM.
11-20-07, 05:43 PM
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Thanks Wotan!
If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to get the ebay name off you. It'd be great to find a period oil port to stick there. The bearings on the headset are surprisingly in good nick. I pulled them, degreased/greased, and reinstalled and it's quite smooth now. The BB might be another story as it's not original and pretty 'grindy' even after ample grease. I may have to find a new replacement.
Could be a Brisbane manufacturer. I've just emailed Darrell McCulloch (of Llewellyn fame) to see what he makes of it. He's known to be a bit of a bible on antique and collectible bikes, single speeds especially.
Just heard from Milwake bikes that my wheels have been shipped so I'll post photos next week when they arrive!
Cheers,
Tim
If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to get the ebay name off you. It'd be great to find a period oil port to stick there. The bearings on the headset are surprisingly in good nick. I pulled them, degreased/greased, and reinstalled and it's quite smooth now. The BB might be another story as it's not original and pretty 'grindy' even after ample grease. I may have to find a new replacement.
Could be a Brisbane manufacturer. I've just emailed Darrell McCulloch (of Llewellyn fame) to see what he makes of it. He's known to be a bit of a bible on antique and collectible bikes, single speeds especially.
Just heard from Milwake bikes that my wheels have been shipped so I'll post photos next week when they arrive!
Cheers,
Tim
11-20-07, 06:01 PM
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11-20-07, 06:06 PM
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Thanks Wotan.
Been reading on Malvin stars. Here is a set of photos of a 5 star that is SIMILAR to mine:
https://www.classicrendezvous.com/Aus...ern_Alanna.htm
My head tube has four places for the four stars and the integrated headset is just about identical. Similar ornate lug-work on the fork crown too.
Edit: Gary, you could be on to something here. Do you have photos of your bikes? Do you think the stars could have been removed from my head tube?
Cheers,
Tim
Been reading on Malvin stars. Here is a set of photos of a 5 star that is SIMILAR to mine:
https://www.classicrendezvous.com/Aus...ern_Alanna.htm
My head tube has four places for the four stars and the integrated headset is just about identical. Similar ornate lug-work on the fork crown too.
Edit: Gary, you could be on to something here. Do you have photos of your bikes? Do you think the stars could have been removed from my head tube?
Cheers,
Tim
11-20-07, 07:44 PM
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FWIW, Malvern Star was what first jumped into my mind when I saw this until I looked at the headbadge.
11-20-07, 10:49 PM
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Yeah, I thought Malvern Star as well, especially with the oiler port, the dropouts and though not many Malverns have the serial number on the seat lug, my 54 Coronation certainly does. And your headlugs do appear to have room for the stars. However, I scrolled through plenty of Malvern Star photos and could find none from any era where the centre point extends so far down like yours. Not to say it isn't one, but I can't find any that look the same.
11-21-07, 01:01 AM
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I'd say your bike isn't a Malvern Star but that doesn't really matter. I think I'm correct to say that Malvern Stars of the era your bike comes from would have had stars in the frame some where or another. To remove the stars you would have to heat the heat tube with an Oxy torch and melt the bronze to remove the stars. The stars were located on pins of steel which were approx. 1.5mm to 2mm in diameter. Before you painted the frame you would have seen evidence or the pins. By the way, the frame would be worth much more as a 4 Star or 5 Star frame. It's good to be able to cross one possibility off your list.
I haven't got any photo's of the Malvern Stars I have mentioned.
I haven't got any photo's of the Malvern Stars I have mentioned.
Last edited by Gary Fountain; 11-21-07 at 02:16 AM.
11-21-07, 01:27 AM
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Actually, now that you mention it Gary, when I stripped the paint off the frame, there were four small sections of bronze at the four rounded out sections of the lug work on the head tube. I had no idea what they were for and assumed they had something to do with the tube attachments.
It could be that someone has removed the stars. I can't remember if there was a fifth in the centre but you can still see where the left over bronze is under the paint as the surface is slightly deformed.
Give me a minute and I'll check for the fifth star in the middle!!
It could be that someone has removed the stars. I can't remember if there was a fifth in the centre but you can still see where the left over bronze is under the paint as the surface is slightly deformed.
Give me a minute and I'll check for the fifth star in the middle!!
11-21-07, 01:46 AM
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Okay, I'm pretty sure Gary is right and It's a five star Malvern Star that has been altered.
- The five stars have been removed from the head tube (see picture)
- It's been involved in an accident.
The repair work that's been done to the frame includes what appears to be a large section of bronze welding on the rear NonDS chain stay that I noticed after stripping the paint. I'm guessing that they removed the stars when the repair was done IDIOTS!!! They repaired the stay and it appears to be aligned correctly. The top and down tubes are another matter.
The kinks in the top tube and down tube are possibly due to the same accident and they are noticeable on the head-tube photo in the first post. The kink looks like it's occurred from a front impact but if the stay was repaired after this accident then the frame is probably OK and was ridden post repair. I didn't notice anything wrong with the tubes when I stripped the paint off. Does anyone have any experience with kinked steel tubes?? If it IS an early 5-star, would it be Reynolds tubing? I'm guessing then that the fork is not original as it was probably damaged in the crash. When viewed from the side, the kinks are not obvious and it's only when you view it from the front do they become evident.
How difficult would it be to replace the stars? A bridge too far? See attached photos of where the stars were removed.
I'm going to have to do the right thing and put some authentic looking decals on it now damn it! :-) more fun and games.
Cheers,
Tim
edit: do you think it would be worth unkinking the tubes? I could get this done through Darrell McCullough.
- The five stars have been removed from the head tube (see picture)
- It's been involved in an accident.
The repair work that's been done to the frame includes what appears to be a large section of bronze welding on the rear NonDS chain stay that I noticed after stripping the paint. I'm guessing that they removed the stars when the repair was done IDIOTS!!! They repaired the stay and it appears to be aligned correctly. The top and down tubes are another matter.
The kinks in the top tube and down tube are possibly due to the same accident and they are noticeable on the head-tube photo in the first post. The kink looks like it's occurred from a front impact but if the stay was repaired after this accident then the frame is probably OK and was ridden post repair. I didn't notice anything wrong with the tubes when I stripped the paint off. Does anyone have any experience with kinked steel tubes?? If it IS an early 5-star, would it be Reynolds tubing? I'm guessing then that the fork is not original as it was probably damaged in the crash. When viewed from the side, the kinks are not obvious and it's only when you view it from the front do they become evident.
How difficult would it be to replace the stars? A bridge too far? See attached photos of where the stars were removed.
I'm going to have to do the right thing and put some authentic looking decals on it now damn it! :-) more fun and games.
Cheers,
Tim
edit: do you think it would be worth unkinking the tubes? I could get this done through Darrell McCullough.
Last edited by violto; 11-21-07 at 02:24 AM.
11-21-07, 02:46 AM
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Hi Tim,
It looks as if you do have a Malvern Star 5 Star - Australia's most collectable bike.
But what a dilema. I have heard rumors of fake 5 Stars - new stars can be made. (I've often thought about trying to make a set of stars but the curved material and the plane you would have to cut the points on have stopped my contemplation...but don't tell anyone.) I have a 5 star that was another makers bike but had the stars added in 1960 by the Malvern Star factory when its owner won the Austral wheelrace and joined the Malvern Star team.
I have seen many configurations of head lugs and position of the stars. There is no one 'correct' layout.
I would guess that your frame is late thirtys or, most probably,40's. Tubing; probably Reynolds - Double Butted - ??? Front forks look great; same as the 5 Star you downloaded from the Canberra Museum.
I can't say what is correct or which way you should go with the re-identification of your frame. The Canberra Bike Museum (which is privately owned) may be a good place to ask your questions or you could try to contact Mr. Warren Meade of Bicyclepassion bike shop in Lakes Entrance Vic. who IS the most knowledgable Malvern Star (or any bike) person I know. Ask him what to do.
If you search ebay you will find "Cyclemondo' (I think). He does produce Malvern Star decals which are of top quality.
Dints in the frame: I try to fill the dints with bronze but it is a bit difficult. It is very easy to burn holes in the frame. Another method I've heard about but never used is car body filler. With either method you would need to file the surface back to round which sounds more difficult than it really is.
Anyway, you've solved your ID problem,
Best of luck,
Gary.
It looks as if you do have a Malvern Star 5 Star - Australia's most collectable bike.
But what a dilema. I have heard rumors of fake 5 Stars - new stars can be made. (I've often thought about trying to make a set of stars but the curved material and the plane you would have to cut the points on have stopped my contemplation...but don't tell anyone.) I have a 5 star that was another makers bike but had the stars added in 1960 by the Malvern Star factory when its owner won the Austral wheelrace and joined the Malvern Star team.
I have seen many configurations of head lugs and position of the stars. There is no one 'correct' layout.
I would guess that your frame is late thirtys or, most probably,40's. Tubing; probably Reynolds - Double Butted - ??? Front forks look great; same as the 5 Star you downloaded from the Canberra Museum.
I can't say what is correct or which way you should go with the re-identification of your frame. The Canberra Bike Museum (which is privately owned) may be a good place to ask your questions or you could try to contact Mr. Warren Meade of Bicyclepassion bike shop in Lakes Entrance Vic. who IS the most knowledgable Malvern Star (or any bike) person I know. Ask him what to do.
If you search ebay you will find "Cyclemondo' (I think). He does produce Malvern Star decals which are of top quality.
Dints in the frame: I try to fill the dints with bronze but it is a bit difficult. It is very easy to burn holes in the frame. Another method I've heard about but never used is car body filler. With either method you would need to file the surface back to round which sounds more difficult than it really is.
Anyway, you've solved your ID problem,
Best of luck,
Gary.
Last edited by Gary Fountain; 11-21-07 at 03:02 AM.
11-21-07, 03:56 AM
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Gary, you are a champion. If we ever meet, I owe you a beer.
Do you ride in Around the Bay in a Day? If so, I'll most probably be down in Melbourne around that time next year. I might have a new-old Malvern Star to show you by then!
Cheers,
Tim
Do you ride in Around the Bay in a Day? If so, I'll most probably be down in Melbourne around that time next year. I might have a new-old Malvern Star to show you by then!
Cheers,
Tim
11-21-07, 04:01 AM
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Tim - I'm toooo old but i'd love to see a new-old Malvern Star.
Gary.
Gary.
11-21-07, 04:30 AM
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violto, there,s a guy near me who has 3 "5 stars" under his house and as soon as i saw your bike i just knew ! you have a piece of Aussie history there m8 !
11-21-07, 04:37 AM
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HI ozneddy,
Yeah, glad to have it now I know what it is. I guess I have to do it justice with the resto job. I was thinking of changing the paint scheme to something similar to this:
https://canberrabicyclemuseum.com.au/...ube_Medium.jpg
Off-white with metalic maroon looks great! it's even the Queensland colours.
Yeah, glad to have it now I know what it is. I guess I have to do it justice with the resto job. I was thinking of changing the paint scheme to something similar to this:
https://canberrabicyclemuseum.com.au/...ube_Medium.jpg
Off-white with metalic maroon looks great! it's even the Queensland colours.
11-21-07, 04:38 AM
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tim, if ever you are down the gold coast I,d be happy for you to meet him ! send me a pm if you want ! cheers Ned !
11-21-07, 11:18 AM
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violto - there is a fellow aussie on eBay that makes excellent transfers, and I'd be amazed if he didn't do Malvern Stars...His eBay ID is GTS753 and he usually has auctions up...if you can't find him I have his real name and address at work, and would be happy to pop down there and dig it out.
If the bends in the tubes are not noticeable, I'd build it up and ride it, to see how it goes. If the alignment is out, a frame builder can realign everything without too many tears...
If the bends in the tubes are not noticeable, I'd build it up and ride it, to see how it goes. If the alignment is out, a frame builder can realign everything without too many tears...
11-21-07, 11:31 AM
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Thanks Lurker,
I've got a bid in for a set of decals, apparently NOS currently for sale on ebay. Worse comes to worse and I can't get any, I can have a set made up at a place near here that cuts vinyl car decals. Not sure how it would look but it would be last resort.
I've decided to do a couple of things:
- I think I'd find it extremely difficult to source a set of 5 star stars that were original. I'm going to make a set out of some plate steel and have them brazed onto the head tube.
- I'm going to sand back the paint job I've currently got on there and repaint it period colours after I have finished making the stars and have them attached.
I'd love to ride it so like you said, better to see how she goes on the road before committing to any MORE paint work. Last job was a real pain but it worked well and was quite durable.
I think the frame has been realigned at some point. There is brazing at the bend points in the tubes and it appears to have been corrected. The tubes still aren't straight as a result of the repair but I don't think it'll alter the ride characteristics.
Tim
I've got a bid in for a set of decals, apparently NOS currently for sale on ebay. Worse comes to worse and I can't get any, I can have a set made up at a place near here that cuts vinyl car decals. Not sure how it would look but it would be last resort.
I've decided to do a couple of things:
- I think I'd find it extremely difficult to source a set of 5 star stars that were original. I'm going to make a set out of some plate steel and have them brazed onto the head tube.
- I'm going to sand back the paint job I've currently got on there and repaint it period colours after I have finished making the stars and have them attached.
I'd love to ride it so like you said, better to see how she goes on the road before committing to any MORE paint work. Last job was a real pain but it worked well and was quite durable.
I think the frame has been realigned at some point. There is brazing at the bend points in the tubes and it appears to have been corrected. The tubes still aren't straight as a result of the repair but I don't think it'll alter the ride characteristics.
Tim
11-21-07, 11:45 AM
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score, found his site and he has PLENTY of decal sets!
https://search.ebay.com.au/_W0QQsassZgts753
Thanks guys! His store is called "Cyclemondo" as Gary mentioned earlier.
https://search.ebay.com.au/_W0QQsassZgts753
Thanks guys! His store is called "Cyclemondo" as Gary mentioned earlier.
