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Sachs New Success info?

Old 12-07-07, 12:28 PM
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onetwentyeight 
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Sachs New Success info?



i picked up a derailleur set of sachs new success stuff for my touring/lazy sunday 10 speed carlton (the campy rally stuff i had was giving me headaches). it looks pretty nice and seems to work quite well, i just dont know much about the group and am looking for a little more information about it.

thanks!
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Old 12-07-07, 12:43 PM
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short-lived copy of shimano's indexed 7402 8-speed rear derailleur..
ca. 1994...

did you get the integrated shifters too ?
that would be cool

Last edited by coelcanth; 12-07-07 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 12-07-07, 12:47 PM
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nope. just the derailleurs. with some fudging i got them working with the silver bar end shifters from rivendelle. im hoping that since its such an un sought after group i may be able to piece it all together affordably. the whole bike is a bit of a mish mash of parts, as i got the thing for free and have been trying to put as little money into it as possible
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Old 12-07-07, 12:53 PM
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despite the association with Spidel and Sedis, this stuff was contract built by other companies for Sachs. I believe that Campagnolo had something to do with the drivetrain parts (but correct me if that's wrong) and the brakes and stem look very Modolo-ish...
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Old 12-07-07, 12:56 PM
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Here are your ergo shifters: https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=006

My understanding is that these were simply Sachs branded Campagnolo ergos, yet the seller believes otherwise. I suppose if the dérailleurs are Shimano 8 speed copies, they have cable pull compatible with Shimano of that era. Interesting marriage indeed!

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Old 12-07-07, 01:03 PM
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I have some 8spd integrated Sachs levers. It's a Campagnolo ergo power lever, except for the "Sachs" on the lever. Even the hoods are campy (replacement perhaps?).

I was wondering about them... never heard about it before. Ca 1994 you say?

Don't know if they are the new success line, but I have some nice chromed Sachs cranks too

Edit: they're just like the above eBay link. They'll work with Shimano 7spd as it has the same cassette spacing (that's my setup actually, so I guess the derailleurs have the same pull ratio as well)
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Old 12-07-07, 01:07 PM
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I have a New Success mtn/long cage derailleur on the back of my 7sp commuter. Works great with SRAM Grip Shift and now Shimano-compatible generic indexed thumb shifter. Supposedly offers a heavier spring than similar vintage Shimano LX/XT/XTR, and so would work better with ca mid-90s Grip Shifters, but I didn't notice much difference when swapped in for an older LX. Not that this has anything to do with your road build... I was initially impressed with the quality and it has held up very well over time. Originally used for off-road riding, it survived that and was pressed into commuter service. Never had any kind of problem with it and it is wearing extremely well.
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Old 12-07-07, 01:24 PM
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Interesting group. Neat looking calipers, there's definitely Modolo involvement as it's mentioned in the catalog. And that's a Modolo 'suicide' stem for sure.
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Old 12-07-07, 08:25 PM
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The New Success was a well made group that was reasonably priced, but lacked the prestige of Campa or Shimano. There also was a MTB Version of it.
The parts were contract made from companies all over europe. Cranks were Chorus, Ergos also came from Campagnolo, brakes from Modolo. Derailleurs were own design and also sold as part of the EDCO Group. Because of the different geometry of the derailleur, the Ergos shift slightly different than their Campa counterparts and possibly won't work with a Campa RD. The Hubs are unique too and not a casette design, an 8-speed freewheel came with the group.
The group had an inexpensive brother, the Rival 7000, which is painted in a dark silver instead of being polished.

I'd rate the New Success about equal or a little below to contemporary Chorus or Shimano Ultegra.
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Old 02-20-09, 08:16 PM
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Bringing back an old thread, as I have the full group now!

Just need a frame... (and to replace those ugly chainrings. blech!)











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Old 02-20-09, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by onetwentyeight View Post
Bringing back an old thread, as I have the full group now!

Just need a frame... (and to replace those ugly chainrings. blech!)
Nice group. I have the frame, just send those components to me.
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Old 02-20-09, 08:30 PM
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thats not how it works!

its amazing how cheap it all was, if you can take the time to find it.

Last edited by onetwentyeight; 02-20-09 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 03-22-18, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Kommisar89 View Post
Ok, so now that I've had some time to look at the info provided above and Sheldon's spacing information, I think a workable combination can be made -

Standard Shimano 9-speed spacing is 4.34 mm C-C divided by a 1.67 derailleur ratio would give cable pull of 2.5988mm for a 9-speed shifter:
4.34 / 1.67 = 2.5988

With the Sachs derailleur ratio of 1.60, 2.5988mm of cable pull would move the derailleur 4.158mm
1.60 * 2.5988mm = 4.158mm

If you fitted a SRAM 9-speed cassette with 1.80mm thick cogs with Shimano 10-speed 2.35mm spacers, you should get 4.15mm C-C spacing.

That should work just fine for a fully indexed 9-speed Sachs-Huret drive train.

Check my math for me if you would. Does that sound right?
Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
Your Sachs New Success front shifter will handle either a double or triple-ring crankset. Since you have an 8-speed cogset in the rear, you will want to run a 7/8 speed chain. The rings on a 10-speed crankset may not be happy with the wide chain. Buying an older triple road crankset off Ebay would be my solution.

The bigger problem could be your rear derailleur; I assume it is a Sachs New Success unit. If it is a short-cage derailleur, it would not have enough chain takeup capability to handle the triple. You would want the long cage version; these show up on Ebay at inflated prices on a regular basis.

BTW: I have 2 sets of stock early 90s New Success Ergopower shifters, obviously made by Campagnolo. They are in no way compatible with Shimano rear derailleurs - not even close. And it has nothing to do with the cassette spacing. However, the Sachs New Success rear derailleurs and shifters are completely compatible with Campagnolo derailleurs from 1992 to 2000. So if you went to a triple crankset, you will be able to substitute a long-cage Campagnolo derailleur from this same vintage.

Finally, only one out of 100 shop mechanics will be able to figure out the deep issues with your drivetrain. Sachs New Success was sold in very small quantities over here, and it has some subtle compatibility issues. Nice stuff though.

And one in 10 shops will be motivated to simply not sell you an entire drivetrain with wheels.

So careful where you take your advice from, and resist any temptation to change a lot of stuff out or to rack up a big bill.
Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
I know that the OP owns a triple but the existing derailleurs should be able to handle a compact without any trouble.

Also this thread might be useful: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...riple-Crankset

And this: https://www.bikehugger.com/post/view/...-compact-crank

Also sachs new success can work with shimano: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-compatibility
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Old 03-22-18, 11:25 AM
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thecycleclinic Sachs New Success was designed around 5mm Sprocket spacing for 7 or 8 speed(up to 1997) 1998 and after it was designed around 4.8mm sprocket spacing for 8 speed. 7 speed shimana has 5mm sprocket spacing which is why it works for you.,post 1998 Sachs shifters works with shimano 8 speed cassettes.


https://www.lfgss.com/conversations/267757/
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Old 03-22-18, 11:26 AM
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NEW SUCCESS SACHS
VeloBase.com - View Group
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Old 03-22-18, 11:47 AM
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Interesting catalogs
https://translate.google.com/transla...3/&prev=search
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Old 03-22-18, 11:50 AM
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Catalog BRIFTER

https://www.rennrad-news.de/forum/th....138753/page-2
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Old 03-22-18, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by kc0yef View Post
thecycleclinic Sachs New Success was designed around 5mm Sprocket spacing for 7 or 8 speed(up to 1997) 1998 and after it was designed around 4.8mm sprocket spacing for 8 speed. 7 speed shimana has 5mm sprocket spacing which is why it works for you.,post 1998 Sachs shifters works with shimano 8 speed cassettes.

https://www.lfgss.com/conversations/267757/
Perhaps. However, Campy 8 and Shimano 8 speed spacing is so close, that it is practically interchangeable.

The much bigger compatibility issue is that between the shifters and derailleurs. I have two complete Sachs New Success drivetrains. The shifters are not remotely compatible with Shimano derailleurs and vice-versa. As far as I can tell, the derailleurs are functional copies of Campagnolo 8-speed derailleurs, with an actuation ratio of 1.43:1.

Way different than the 1.67 Shimano actuation ratio.
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Old 03-22-18, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
Perhaps. However, Campy 8 and Shimano 8 speed spacing is so close, that it is practically interchangeable.

The much bigger compatibility issue is that between the shifters and derailleurs. I have two complete Sachs New Success drivetrains. The shifters are not remotely compatible with Shimano derailleurs and vice-versa. As far as I can tell, the derailleurs are functional copies of Campagnolo 8-speed derailleurs, with an actuation ratio of 1.43:1.

Way different than the 1.67 Shimano actuation ratio.
Your experience seems to be opposite everyone else's:

Sachs New Success derailleur index compatibility

Sachs New Success Der. + Plus Shimano shifter = ?- Mtbr.com


I haven't mounted my New Success derailleur yet, but I'll let you know.
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Old 03-22-18, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
Your experience seems to be opposite everyone else's:


I haven't mounted my New Success derailleur yet, but I'll let you know.


I've tried mixing Shimano derailleurs with Sachs New Success shifters on an 8-speed cogset. I sort of works for 4 gears out of 8, then the cumulative error causes the shifting to jump all over the place. Basically the actuation ratio of the derailleur is too large, and it overshifts.


When you install a Sachs New Success derailleur, or a Campagnolo 8-speed derailleur, then all problems immediately go away. Shifting bliss.


BTW: my relatively active and sophisticated riding friends demonstrate little awareness of the mechanical aspects of their bikes, bordering on the dangerously oblivious. I've had friends run for weeks with slack rear derailleur cables while complaining that their bikes were: "hard to ride". Turns out that they were incapable of using the largest 4 cogs on their cassette. And, in my volunteering as a mechanic at a local Co-op confirms that most of the riding public has no problem in riding a bike in which the derailleur noisily and continuously jumps randomly over the cassette.


So the previous posts in this forum that indicates that Shimano rear derailleurs 'work' with Sachs shifters is probably par for the course.
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Old 03-22-18, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
I've tried mixing Shimano derailleurs with Sachs New Success shifters on an 8-speed cogset. I sort of works for 4 gears out of 8, then the cumulative error causes the shifting to jump all over the place. Basically the actuation ratio of the derailleur is too large, and it overshifts.


When you install a Sachs New Success derailleur, or a Campagnolo 8-speed derailleur, then all problems immediately go away. Shifting bliss.


BTW: my relatively active and sophisticated riding friends demonstrate little awareness of the mechanical aspects of their bikes, bordering on the dangerously oblivious. I've had friends run for weeks with slack rear derailleur cables while complaining that their bikes were: "hard to ride". Turns out that they were incapable of using the largest 4 cogs on their cassette. And, in my volunteering as a mechanic at a local Co-op confirms that most of the riding public has no problem in riding a bike in which the derailleur noisily and continuously jumps randomly over the cassette.


So the previous posts in this forum that indicates that Shimano rear derailleurs 'work' with Sachs shifters is probably par for the course.
On a Sachs/Campy spaced 8 speed cogset (5.0) or a Shimano spaced 8 speed (4.8)? The Sachs shifter is going to move the Shimano derailleur 5.0mm per shift.
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Old 03-22-18, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
On a Sachs/Campy spaced 8 speed cogset (5.0) or a Shimano spaced 8 speed (4.8)? The Sachs shifter is going to move the Shimano derailleur 5.0mm per shift.


No. The math says that the Sachs shifter will move the Shimano derailleur 5.8mm per click. This is consistent with my on-the-bike experience: it overshifts.
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Old 03-22-18, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
No. The math says that the Sachs shifter will move the Shimano derailleur 5.8mm per click. This is consistent with my on-the-bike experience: it overshifts.
Were you using a Shimano spaced cassette or not?
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Old 03-22-18, 02:21 PM
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Okay, just pulled a standard Shimano road derailleur off my Raleigh which is mated to Shimano 8 speed downtube shifters and a Shimano 8 speed cassette. I installed the New Success derailleur, set the stops and installed the cable.

It shifts perfectly, and when I measured the parallelogram pivot points and cable anchor location they are identical to Ultegra.


Dave, you tried to make a shifter that wants to make 5mm shifts work on a 4.8 spaced Shimano cassette. A lot of relatively active and sophisticated tinkerers demonstrate little awareness of the mechanical aspects of different shift systems. Cassette spacing matters.
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Old 03-22-18, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
Were you using a Shimano spaced cassette or not?


I don't think so. I was on vintage Campy Shamal wheels which would have had an 8-speed cassette.


Regardless, 4.8 vs. 5.0mm spacing, in this context it is irrelevant. In my considerable experience in marrying shifters, derailleurs and cogsets from diverse makers, I've found that 0.2mm 'error' per cog is within tolerances for acceptable indexed shifting.


However, again based on my real-world experience, my Sachs New Success derailleur and a 9-speed Ultegra derailleur are in no way cross-compatible.


So my Sachs New Success RD was a functional equivalent of a Campy 8-speed derailleur, both in terms of dimensions and performance.
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