Italian Touring Frames?
 

My dear girlfriend loves her De Rosa, and it is indeed a beautiful bike. I watched her arrive on it the other day in the sunshine and it's light metalic blue sparkles. She also has her Specialized Allez, which is another sparkling bike, but she wants a touring bike and she has decided that only an Italian frame will do.

She would really like a De Rosa but I can't find any with touring lugs? Do they exist? Or, do Cinelli, the other make she really likes the look of, make a touring frame?

Or, what are the choices for an Italian touring frame up to the early 80s?

very rare, almost "scarce as hen's teeth". I recall there was *one* high-end builder in Italia that supplied some real touring bikes to local Italian touring market, but most of the 6 or 7 guys who were smitten with this aspect of the sport went with British or (even) French bikes. I believe it may have been Romani who was this builder, but my quick archive search was fruitless. I'd suggest she would have better luck shifting her lust away from DeRosa or Cinelli (I know, it's easier said than done) and perhaps consider something American-made in the Italian style: like a Medici (made in L.A., but with some connections to Masi) which were available in a touring model and some of these were some very nice bikes, too.
Any of our Canadian friends know whether Marinoni or Mariposa made a touring rig? (if so, those would be a couple worthwhile options, as well)

Mariposa made more randonneuring french style bikes but they definitely made some touring rigs as well. Good luck funding one, I wouldn't get your hopes up. Also be prepared to give up an organ for it. Marinoni also made some touring bike but not until the 90s which is good and bad. Good because they typically have larger diameter tubing and will provide a solid ride, bad because they aren't as classic looking. It was in the mid 90s that they started using those awful unicrown/crownless forks. Cramerotti did make some touring bikes as well, I almost bought one for my girlfriend and I said "I'll take it" and the moron owner said "Well I'm not sure if I want to sell it yet".. I'm thinking "why the f%*k did you call me then!?!"... Anyway.... you have to decide what features you want out of the bike and what you want it to do first then start looking. Are you thinking more randonneur? or do you want full on loaded touring... I think if you are thinking more randonneur you should think about one of the Japanese builders doing beautiful work in the french style of the 60s/70s but way superior.

i remember selling one model of italian-built bianchi's with a 'touring' geometry, triple crankset (gipiemme?), campy rally rear derailleur, cantilever brakes, rack mount eyelets, etc. right around 1980 or 81. colours were in celeste or a dark pewter gray. i don't recall the model designation tho. we sold every one we could get our hands on - iirc, all 3 of them ( ie-they were rare even when they were new and in the current catalogue )

The Bianchi Randonneur.


http://i17.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/d4/3f/6ab7_12.JPG



Although at least some (the later ones?) were Japanese-made Bianchis.

The first hit on Google when I entered "Bianchi Randonneur" was this:
http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PREREL/PRHTML90/90138.html
Apparently the forks were recalled due to failure, so if you ever come across one, check it against this article to make sure it's safe.

another bianchi

How about a bianchi?

probably too big for average height female in japan...

What's wrong with a Miyata in 6xx or 10xx flavour?

Yeah, the Volpe would be a great candidate.

i forgot about this italian produced model from 1983 ,the successor to the model i mentioned above - bianchi rallye

http://www.bulgier.net/pics/bike/Cat...nchi-83/05.jpg

btw-there were a few bianchi models with "touring" in their model names that were just racing bikes with wide gearing-ex: nouvo touring from 81.

iirc, all the bianchi "touring" models sold after 83 or 84 were of japanese manufacture

I'm not sure what "touring lugs" are?
Most important thing is geometry - fender clearance, chainstay length; then braze-ons - fender eyelets, extra bottle cage mount, rack braze-ons, etc. Depends on how heavy-duty touring she's interested in.
Honestly, the "only an Italian frame will do" is a real limiter when it comes to touring bikes, as it's just not what Italian frame builders did. It's like insisting on an Italian minivan for your next vehicle. You can find older Cinelli's that could be used for light touring. The one Italian frame builder who comes to mind who built some genuine touring bikes is Freschi, who formerly worked for Pogliaghi. Colnago built a few touring frames as well, in the 80's, but who knows where those were outsourced from.
(Don't think Mariposa fills the "Italian" bill, as cyclotoine pointed out).

You might have more luck if you build a light touring bike. If you insist on staying Italian, an older road bike will have more generous clearances and you can add some more by switching the 27" wheels (if present) with 700c. I did this on an older Panasonic and fitted 700x30s with fenders. An older cyclo-cross frame also might be excellent although hard to come by. Both might lack in rack braze-ons though. Otherwise +1 on Japanese bikes (e.g. Miyata)

Older dedicated touring bikes with some pedigree are hard to come by. They were mostly built on custom order. I'm lucky to have a late 80's touring Marinoni and it's quite nice. Mariposas are truly stunning and are more French than Italian (inspired by the constructeurs such as Rene Herse). Even here in Toronto I've seen only one or two.. they're few in numbers.

Here's a few pics for fun:
My marinoni:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2306/...2e6b9c406d.jpg
From the mariposa website:
http://www.mariposabicycles.com/imag...iposa--760.jpg
From the web:
http://www.pathcom.com/%7Eppiltch/Mariposa-left.jpg

quote: "(Don't think Mariposa fills the "Italian" bill, as cyclotoine pointed out)."
True, I was just pulling names out of my (ahem) in an attempt to steer the search in a different direction. Most of the really slick hand-built touring frames from North American builders (and there's a bunch of real eye-candy, just look at those NAHMBS pics) were influenced by the French Constructeurs, or by the British Masters...and once you realize that you might begin to lust for some of the beauties that are being made by Japanese boutique builders in that style.
FWIW, I believe that Dawes-man has written that his Japanese girlfriend takes an untypically large frame: around 54cm (?)
tuz: those are some beautiful touring rigs!
and Picchio: thanks for Freschi, that was the name I had read on CR many light-years ago.

If I had the money I'd go for a Bruce Gordon.. However I don't so my goal is to upgrade to a Long Haul Trucker.... sure they are common but they are solid and well designed. It's not like I am buying it for the subtle nuances of it's ride. it's a workhorse for daily commuting with panniers and for full blown self supported loaded touring. I say a custom Rodrigez touring bike the other day in my size. Nice welded steel frame.... it cost $1700! for the frame... I was thinking.. what does this offer that a LHT doesn't... 2 things: (1) a bottle opener (2) a custom tailored fit to one persons fit philosophy. Hmmm 2 things I don't need. what does a LHT offer that this bike doesn't? (1) Affordability (2) Way more tire clearance (3) a spoke holder (4) the ability to not worry to much about locking it up around town and at school or work...
I'll stick with cheeper frames for touring.

I can't say that I have ever seen an Italian touring bike. That doesn't mean there aren't any, but it I feel pretty comfortable saying that it means that they are uncommon, at least on the West Coast of the US of A.

Another possible way to go is to look for an older Italian road racing frame, as in 1950's or 1960's. Because roads were significantly worse then (check out photos of the unpaved cols Bobet and Anqutil raced over), racing bikes of the day had longer wheelbases and slacker frame angles than became common in the 1970's and beyond. I'd guess that the geometyry and ride of a 1950's racing bike has more in common with a modern tourer than with a modern racer.

There is a downside here - such frames were not made with the idea of hauling a bunch of camping gear. It can be done, but the bike is likely to be whippier, especially at the bottom bracket, under a load than a purpose-built touring rig will be. But if it's got to be Italian steel, this may work, especially you are talking about "credit card" touring, and the coolness factor will be off the charts.

Personally, though, and though I admire your GF's taste in bikes, getting a bike designed to haul a bunch of gear is a better way to go, IMHO, even if it doesn't have a name on the downtube that ends with a vowel.

Hearsay says there's no heresy in a Herse.

Many thanks to everyone who posted! My girlfriend is very impressed.

Before posting, I'd looked everywhere for an Italian bike with eyelets for mudguards (that's what I meant by 'touring lugs' Picchio Special... for me, with my lack of expertise, the presence of eyelets means the bike is more likely to have been built with touring in mind ) but hadn't seen a single one. Italian eBay doesn't help much with their tiny and often blurred photos.

unworthy1 pretty much confirmed my suspicion straight off... they are very rare. Picchio Special filled out that picture with more background - thanks!

We don't want to go heavy duty touring, more randonneur-style (thanks to this thread I've at last understood what that means... I think). Our idea is to get on a train to escape the heavy traffic on all roads in and out of Tokyo, whip our bikes out of our yet-to-be-bought bike-bags and then spend a few days at a time going from hot spa to hot spa, of which there are thousands in Japan, it being full of volcanoes, in mostly beautiful surroundings - pretty much what we've been doing for the last 14 years, and around 100,000 miles, on our motorcycles except we don't plan on camping this time. We might do that later as we gain experience.

Therefore, no tents, just clothes and stuff. We want mudguards and some racks at the front and back... something like the Bianchi Randonneur pictured (thanks Blue Order, and thanks digitalbicycle for the warning). The Volpe looks good - tks AEO - and Miyata will be looked at. Personally, I like them but I have it in my mind that they, and Nishiki, can be a bit wooden to ride. Please disabuse me of this notion if it is false.

My GF has duly adjusted her thinking and is now thinking English or French (with wide open eyes on thread-size difficulty) or a Bianchi Rallye - thanks for the photo caterham. The Marinoni and Mariposa bikes fit the bill, too but what a lot of money! Thanks for the photos & links tuz! An obvious choice here in Japan is a Toei but as cyclotoine points out about getting a Mariposa, you'll give up an organ to get one, maybe 2 - just a frame will cost you over $2500. They are made to order, take 6 months and almost never appear on the 2nd hand market. Even if one does, finding your size would be next to impossible. Yuko size, btw, is 51 or 52 cm c-t & around 55cm top tube.

She isn't thinking big bucks, although she'd probably go to around $1200 if she saw a bike that really made her go 'Wow!', or around $700 for a nice frame. Around $600 is what she's hoping to spend on a complete bike.

"...even if it doesn't have a name on the downtube that ends with a vowel." LOL! Thanks for that bikingshearer.

To sum up, we are still looking and thinking. If possible we'd like to get this sorted out within the next 3 weeks or so to coincide with when my Peugeot should be finished and the 'Golden Week' holidays start. Otherwise, I can see me carrying all the gear and Yuko on her De Rosa or Allez and a big smirk on her face as she wafts effortlessly ahead of her pack-animal.

Thanks again, everyone! Lots to think about.

don't give up buying that vowel just yet...

From the 1981 Bianchi catalog:
Bianchi Super Turismo - "Riding Bianchi's classic English-style touring bicycle is a completely unique experience..." Specs


From the '83 Bianchi catalog:
Bianchi Rallye - The ultimate in handcrafted touring design, the Rallye features Compagnolo Gran Sport triple crankset..."


full catalog source



.

speak of the devil :)...in San Francisco

Bianchi “Gran Rally” Touring Bicycle $500

.

actually, in Scott's Valley, but what's a few dozen miles between neighbors:D. This is way too big for Yuko (we know her name, now) but probably about right for Dawes...time to add another to the stable?

Colnago made Cyclecross frames. They are rare but you might find one, I doubt it would have mounts for mud gaurds but you would get cantilever brakes. More recently, Bianchi made the San Remo model until 2004. It is more of a randonneur type bike, it has fender mounts and would also work for lightly loaded touring. It came with Campagnolo Mirage. I test rode one around Olympia, WA and liked it. I would change the crank to a 26-38-48 from the 30-42-53 and swap the Ergo Brifters for standard levers and bar end shifters.

check this out:
http://www.araya-kk.co.jp/bicycle/ran_top.htm#
lot of other more custom option in Japan too, but I don't have links. that was from a quick google search.

http://www.araya-kk.co.jp/bicycle/Im...lete/50M_s.jpg

This bike is designed for large saddle and bar bags and nothing more, you can fit a lot on those though.

I think the most common (i.e., easiest to find) will be the Bianchi Volpe because they've been making them for so many years. The downsides are I don't think they fit within your timeframe of "up to the early 80s. Another downside is they have a unicrown fork-- not quite a vintage touring look, but then again, Volpes can be readily found. Finally, I'm pretty sure they're Japanese-made Bianchis-- not quite "Italian" touring bikes, but they are Bianchis nonetheless.

What size frame is she looking for?

Here's a Volpe, for example, with a 44cm frame: 44cm Bianchi Volpe

And one with a 52cm frame: 52cm Bianchi Volpe

And one with a 58cm frame: 58cm Bianchi Volpe


All of the Volpes above are of recent vintage; however, the Volpe has been around since 1987, so you if you're looking for a vintage touring bike, and are willing to include late 80s/early 90s in your definition of vintage, you should be able to find one if you have the patience to wait.

Sounds like you're looking for a "rinko" randonneur. You may be able to find one that fits your budget from someone other than TOEI. In any case, I dug out this link, which may (or may not) be helpful:

http://velo-orange.blogspot.com/2006...y-updated.html

Araya, huh? Just had an interesting wander around their website. This, on wheel rims, might interest a few people here: http://www.araya-kk.co.jp/rim/product.htm

Their bikes are very nice and there's something attractive about getting bike from a company that makes good rims... but that's me. Yuko likes the bike.

It'd probably carry enough for her purposes. Hmmm...

Rather than the crownless fork, it's the sloping crossbar that is unattractive. However, Bianchi is a possibility with this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ayphotohosting

Does anyone think this is a bad idea? Ishiwata chrome moly and in the right size, 51cm c to t.