datlas 

I am hoping to (someday) upgrade my shimano dura ace 7400 drivetrain to "modern" brifters. I know that I could use 8 speed Dura-Ace brifters with my RD-7400....but I have seen some reasonably priced Ultegra/600 8 speed brifters on Ebay, and I am wondering if this would be compatible with the D-A rear derailleur.

So, my question is whether this would work?? Of course I need an 8 speed cassette too....so follow up question is whether an 8 speed ultegra/600 cassette would also be compatible?

Doug
1986 Alpine

edit: I just looked at Sheldon Brown's Compatibility Chart, and based on my reading it looks like the answer is "no" and I am stuck having to use D-A shifters....I hope that is a misunderstanding, would appreciate any suggestions/thoughts.

cuda2k

I was going to suggest checking Sheldon's site, see you found your way there. I thought there was an "alternative routing" option that allowed you to mix'n'match. Otherwise, find yourself any 600 / Ultegra series or 105 or other SIS compatible rear derailleur. Guess Shimano wanted to keep Dura-Ace "pure" and made it different to achieve that goal.

Mike552

Just get 9 speed brifters and keep all of your old DA 8 speed stuff. The gear spacing matches perfectly between 9spd brifters and 8spd DA derailleur/cassette...

datlas 

The problem is that my current setup is all 6 speed dura-ace 7400 (from 1986....DT indexed shifters).....it works well but I am considering a budget upgrade to brifters, and my rear derailler/chainrings won't work with anything above 8 speed. Hence, the poor man's upgrade to brifters would only cost me a cassette....plus new wheel....plus the shifter/brifters. I know I have to spread my rear spacing from 126 to 130mm but from what I have heard that is a non issue.

Doug
1986 Alpine

mattface 

I upgraded My Razesa from 6 speed DA to 9 speed STI. It wasn't cheap, but it was cheaper than what you are proposing. If you've got a 6 speed cassette hub you can do it the way I did.

Start by replacing the hub body with an DA 7403 8-speed hub body which will also accept 9 speed cassettes, but will not take an 11 tooth cog. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/k7.html#bodies

Then I used a Shimano 600 8 speed rear derailer, 9 speed ultegra cassete and a 9-speed DA downtube right hand shifter, but kept the left hand friction shifter. You'll want to use Brifters, so that part is different, but if you can get away with replacing the freehub body, you'll still spend less than replacing the wheel, and I think it will be cheaper to go with 9-speed STI compatible components than it would to go with the harder to find 8 speed Dura Ace.

Spinz

I upgraded my 6 speed shimano sis to shimano ultegra 6500. Purchased all of the components on ebay. I saved a lot of cash that way. If I had it to do over again I would have went with the 105 series. Lp

Little Darwin

All of the above are good comments.

One additional note to consider, if you get a good deal on the brifters (whether 8 or 9 speed) you already have the most expensive part of a brifter upgrade... as long as you are frugal in finding the best way to do the rest. A 105 RD capable of 8 or 9 speed is REALLY inexpensive compared to the brifters.

Also, though I have never tried it, I wouldn't hesitiate to try your current chain rings for 9 speed... the spacing is a little bit different, but the rings are the same from what I have heard, so if you have a spacer, remove it, or put in a narrower spacer... or even try it as is...

datlas 

Thanks for all the tips. Good food for thought....I will consider the 105 option....somehow I feel "spoiled" by my DA gear so it seems a step down to go for 105....I know that sounds arrogant but it's how I feel. Maybe I need to have a session with a bike shrink to get over this?

barba

Technology trickles down. The newer 105 stuff will probably be an upgrade if it makes you feel better.

mattface 

9 speed Ultegra will make you feel "spoiled" after 6 speed DA.

datlas 

Good suggestion....does anyone know if I can use my current 6 speed DA crank (and chainrings) with 9 speed ultegra? Or do I need new chainrings?? Sorry to ask such "basic" questions but I don't know the answers. I am thinking I could get by with just the RD, Brifters, Cassette, and Chain but hopefully keep the FD (Could I??), crankset, and (maybe?) chainrings of my DA 7400.

mattface 

I'm using a old campy GS crank and chainrings without problem, but I'm not trying to make indexed shifting work up front. So there is no problem with the chainrings and the chain, but there might be with indexing I guess measure the distance between your chainrings, and measure it on a 9-speed compatible crank. if it's close to the same distance it should work.

datlas 

I dont really care so much about front indexing....my concern about chainrings is that the current 6 speed rings might be too wide for the narrow 9 speed chain.

barba

The spacing between the plates of the chain should still be 3/32". No problems.

datlas 

OK then, the current plan (still a pipe-dream if my wife gets wind of it) is to try for 9 speed ultegra then....thanks for all the tips and suggestions. Looks like used brifters go for about $150 on Ebay, is that a fair price? There are NIB ones but they are $250 which seems a bit steep. The RD/chain/cassette are pretty reasonably priced based on a quick scan of ebay.

Little Darwin

I think $250 is steep for any brifters, but the current 10 speed Ultegras run for $400 or so, which makes $250 seem pretty reasonable.

The thing I would caution you about is that Shimano brifters are not serviceable, so if they wear out, you need to buy another pair. In my mind, this makes $250 a no-brainer, since people will always claim that their 3 or 4 year old Ultegras were only ridden for 200 miles to get you to spend your $150... They might be telling the truth, but if so there are a lot of people out there riding their $400 Ultegras for a few miles then spending $300 ($450 for DA minus $150 recovery on Ultegra) to upgrade to Dura-Ace... even though almost anyone who has ridden both claims the difference between the two is negligible.

I strongly suspect that many people selling their used Ultegras are selling them right before they expect to start degrading performance due to age while they still have some value, to support their upgrade.

Mike552

Is the 6spd DA rd the same as the 8 spd DA rd??? (ie, is the parallelogram the same, causing the shift in spacing in regards to cable pull to be the same?) I never knew the answer to this question, if somebody knows it would be great.

This is an answer that Mr. Brown would probably have answered quite easily I would imagine...

Rabid Koala

I was looking for some 7 speed brifters on Ebay recently, and there is a seller who claims to disassemble and refurbish them. I didn't buy his, I found some that had just come up with a Buy It Now at about half his usual selling price. Now I want to get some junk ones to dismantle and see if they really are serviceable. This whole thing has my curiosity peaked and I have to know.

Little Darwin

According to Sheldon Brown's site, the DA had the same pull for 6-8 speed, and joined the standard pull when they moved to 9 speed.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html

Little Darwin

Anything is serviceable with enough work and custom fabrication. However, I think for the average person, it is beyond their skill level. Also, I have read that Shimano does not supply replacement parts, so unless you can fabricate something, you probably need two sets of broken brifters with different problems in order to get one set of working brifters.

SweetLou

About the chainrings, most likely they will work fine. They will work with indexing also. At least they did for me. I went from a 6 speed to a 9 speed brifter setup and everything was fine. I kept the old front derailer and crankset and they shift perfectly.

Mike552

Wow, that's news to me...

I know that the crank/rings should be fine, but the FD has a completely different cable pull design compared to the newer stuff... I would think that 9 speed brifters would cause the FD not to move as much, therefore creating some chain rub on the FD's cage. This might be alleviated with the extra width of the 6spd FD, but I would imagine some rub would still be present on either side of the spectrum.

SweetLou

For what's it worth, the front derailer is a SunTour Cyclone. I don't get any rub, at least that I have noticed. I don't ride big/big or small/small. With the trim, I have no rub.

I was going to buy a new derailer, but I thought I would give the old one a try first. Since everything worked great, I kept it. I will eventually change over to a newer FD, since I want to use all the Cyclone parts for a new build.

redxj

I was planning to do a 7 to 9 speed upgrade on the cheap on my 85' Eddy Merckx. I started looking for a 9 speed rear derailleur and a set of 9 speed double brifters of at least 105 or better quality. I also needed to find a new wheelset. I ended up finding a slightly used Ultegra 9 speed group on the Serotta forums. I planned to use my current Dura Ace f/d, cranks/BB, and 105 dual pivot brakes. But, I found the group that included f/r derailleurs, Italian threaded BB, 175mm cranks w/ 53/39 rings, brakes, brifters, and a braze on front derailleur all Ultegra for $310 shipped. I was at a lost for a wheelset, but I ended up buying a Vuelta road wheelset off of ebay. The only thing I have to buy is a 9 speed chain and that should be in on Thursday.

Old Fat Guy

So your DA crank/bb f/r derailleurs are perhaps available?

You have my number.