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1980s Raleigh USA question

Old 05-22-08, 03:10 PM
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1980s Raleigh USA question

Hi all. This is my first post here. I've spent a few hours trying to ID my Raleigh USA road bike. It looks very much like a mid-1980s Grand Prix (same decals) but is purple (mainframe) and black. It's been in my family since the late '80s, and the only parts I know to be aftermarket are the Campy Omega rims (wheels were rebuilt). I think the Suntour Superbe Pro r. der., ST Cyclone f. der., Diacompe (I think -- the lettering is almost gone) brakes, Sakae ("SR") hubs marked "85", and Sakae SA crankset are original. There is no tubing decal, only a "Raleigh Bicycle Company of America" decal at the base of the seat tube. Would this have been a Bridgestone-made bike? Any idea of the tubing? I would've guessed it to be a lower / mid-line bike, but in my experience the Superbe Pro usually shows up on better bikes. I suppose it could have been changed.....

Thanks for reading!
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Old 05-22-08, 03:22 PM
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Purple main triangle w/black stays and headtube = 1986 Raleigh USA Super Course. Component group should be original, with the exception of the Superbe Pro RD.

Odd that it is sans name or tubing decal. It should have a Reynolds 531 tubing decal on the seattube, and "Super Course" flanking each side of the rear portion of the top tube - under the clearcoat on the '86 models I've seen.

-Kurt
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Old 05-22-08, 04:08 PM
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Thanks, Kurt.

I've seen references to the USA Super Course, but the pictures I could find all showed different decal styles and the presence of tubing decals (I may have been looking at Nottingham models...?). I just snapped these pictures (the first one has been rotated -- the bike is hanging). The brakes are Dia Compe Royals. It rides very nicely, like '80s Japanese and Italian Bianchis I've ridden (and I owned one), not like many of the heavier Japanese touring / sport bikes of the same era (I restored a Miyata tourer several years ago -- great bike in many ways but rode like a brick). Right now it's just my around town bike, but I may have it painted and spruce it up a bit, although the color is growing on me. Hard to get past those fade decals, though.









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Old 05-22-08, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by dusty99
I've seen references to the USA Super Course, but the pictures I could find all showed different decal styles.
The USA models themselves are tricky at times. The '86 models in particular are not well documented (although I am familiar with them), particularly as I have yet to see someone post the 1986 catalog.

The Raleigh USA variant of the Super Course is reasonably easy to spot though, having been produced in a unique scheme through their four-year production ('83-86 - bonded aluminum "Technium" variants produced after 1986 excluded entirely from the following) every year of production, as opposed to the Competition and Grand Prix which carried over their '84 schemes into 1985 with minor decal revisions.

That said, here is a quick rundown on all the steel (pre-Technium) Raleigh USA Super Course variants. Keep in mind that these models were distributed to the U.S. market only under the Huffy management at the time:

'83 Raleigh USA Super Course (catalog photo, Raleigh "color" name unknown):


'84 Raleigh USA Super Course (Can't recall the Raleigh name for this color as from the catalog. Example shown with stock components and replacement bar tape):


'85 Raleigh USA Super Course ("Official" color: 'Blueberry.' Example shown modified with Suntour components and Cinelli handlebars):


'86 Raleigh USA Super Course ("Official" color unknown, example shown is a fixie owned by another BF member):


As much as I particularly dislike the quality and color of the '86 models myself, I wouldn't repaint it. The scheme, granted, is ugly (IMO, anyway), but the relative infrequency of this scheme makes it a novelty of sorts.

Take care,

-Kurt

P.S.: Calipers might be replacements.
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Old 05-22-08, 06:57 PM
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Thanks for all the great info....

... and nice to see those pictures, Kurt. I had read somewhere (Sheldon Brown?) that the frames from this time period were made by Bridgestone. Can anyone confirm that? Sheldon himself was not impressed by this particular bike when we spoke about it last summer, probably because he was more interested in the English Raleigh production more than anything out of the US partnership. Still, it rides almost perfectly for my tastes-- quiet, solid, just enough spring for my 190 lbs., and a decent sprinter for its age. I just wish it would take a wider tire (28mm is the max), and I wish that Nitto made a wider Randonneur. Spending most of my biking time these days on a mountain bike makes even a 45mm road bike seem narrow.
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Old 05-22-08, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by dusty99
... and nice to see those pictures, Kurt. I had read somewhere (Sheldon Brown?) that the frames from this time period were made by Bridgestone.
Some folks say Bridgestone, others say Panasonic. I don't believe it has been proven in favor of either. I'd like to believe the Japanese production was Panasonic though, as I've found some corollaries in their framework with the Raleigh USA machines. Not enough to base anything definite on though.

Originally Posted by dusty99
Sheldon himself was not impressed by this particular bike when we spoke about it last summer, probably because he was more interested in the English Raleigh production more than anything out of the US partnership.
Everybody has their own machine of preference that they ultimately research - for Sheldon, it was Nottingham production that appeared to intrigue him.

With all due respect for his personal preference, considering the number of "Friday afternoon" frames to come out of the Nottingham plant, I never saw the point in examining or owning any of the higher-end machines from the Nottingham plant - I stuck with the Sports and DL-1 models only, in that respect. Not to say that there isn't one exception - I lust after a red, post '77 Super Course frameset in 23" for an club bike build w/matching red Bluemels fenders and red cotton bar tape. A blur of red in the wonderful character of a traditional English VLW.

That said, I found the Japanese/Taiwanese Raleigh USA machines to be quite nice, if not nicer then one would expect from a upper mid-range machine of this era. They perform admirably well if you desire a stiff frame, and the '86 models corner nice and smoothly (the '84/5's feel much more like crit machines).

Additionally, I don't particularly care for bizarre Japanese names on my downtube (with the exception of Koga-Miyata, although I do not own one myself), so the combination was ideal for my own tastes.

-Kurt
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Old 05-22-08, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuckk
Wasn't only the early stuff Japanese, and most Taiwanese? Usually there's an invisible sticker above the bottom bracket and under the Raleigh USA decal. Sounds like yours lost some decals though.
Most of the top-end '84 models were Japanese (the '84 Alyeska tourer, for instance, is Taiwanese), and by '85, most - if not all (with exclusion of the Nottingham-made Team Pro) - of the lineup was produced in Taiwan, though I'm not in the least bit sure about the Prestige in this case.

One other interesting thing to note - I'm not sure if this has to do with the Super Course being one notch down in the lineup or not - but my Japanese-production '84 Competition has water bottle bosses on the seattube, while my '84 Super Course, also Japanese production, does not. I have yet to examine whether this is the case on all Japanese-production '84s or not.

-Kurt
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Old 05-22-08, 09:09 PM
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Doug, your photos are coming up as "unavailable."

-Kurt
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Old 05-23-08, 10:36 AM
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A bit more....

I was able to take a closer look at my frame this morning. First, I was wrong about the color! As soon as I had a flashlight on it, what had looked like black showed itself to be a deep dark purple, and the chainstays seem to fade from black (at the top) to this purple. So the frame is two purples, not purple and black (funny, since I first saw this bike about 8 yrs. ago and have had it in my possession - and ridden it!- for a year, and never noticed this). There are no signs at all of any tubing decals or of any "Super Course" decals following the "Raleigh USA" decals on the TT (ands these are under the clear coat). There is a small spot where a decal once was at the bottom of the seat tube above the chainring side of the crank. It looks to have been made by an approx. 1x1.5cm sticker. Would this have been the size of the "Made in Taiwan" sticker if it was present?

The frame seems to have been made in 1985, going by what other posts have said about the serial number: Mine is 5L00xxx. Any idea what the "L" stands for? Could it still be for August, like in the English Raleigh system? I also have the "M" and something in a circle below the serial #, plus there are other numbers under the cable guide, but I didn't want to remove it this morning. Finally, the seat post is a snug 26.8, which might indicate straight-gauge 531, but wasn't this also a Columbus size (not that I really think it's Columbus... ). The seat tube bolt lugs are the short, squat variety. Except for a little sign like two boxy letter "C"s facing each other and interlocked at the lugs, and the word "Raleigh" stamped into both head tube lugs, chainstays and dropouts, that's about it.
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Old 05-23-08, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
Most of the top-end '84 models were Japanese-Kurt
I have a supposed 1984 Team I bought as a frame from a guy who said he was affiliated with Raleigh Racing. It is red with yellow decals and maroon stays, no chrome. He said they were only available to the team or given as prizes. He was selling 6 or 8 of them in a number of sizes so story seemed believable. It is decaled Raleigh USA and the headbadge as well, Reynolds 531, but also carries a decal saying "made in England." I've never seen any others. Used to be my favorite bike to ride.
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Old 05-23-08, 11:29 AM
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The serial number indicates a 1985 build. The L could be a fortnight or month indicator, which could make it a 1985 or 1986 model. The 26.8mm post is indicative of Raleigh 555 tubing, which would seem to make it a 1985 model, unless it is one of the 1986 entry level models, as even the 1986 Grand Prix used Reynolds 531C.
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Old 05-23-08, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dbakl
I have a supposed 1984 Team I bought as a frame from a guy who said he was affiliated with Raleigh Racing. It is red with yellow decals and maroon stays, no chrome. He said they were only available to the team or given as prizes. He was selling 6 or 8 of them in a number of sizes so story seemed believable. It is decaled Raleigh USA and the headbadge as well, Reynolds 531, but also carries a decal saying "made in England." I've never seen any others. Used to be my favorite bike to ride.
It is a 1986 (check the serial number) Prestige. Description matches the '86 Prestige perfectly, and indeed, in '86, the Prestige models became, essentially, Nottingham Team Pros with a different paint job on them. Previous models were essentially black/chrome versions of the Japanese Competition frame:


(Example shown has a custom partsbuild on it and a Gios fork, for the record)

The story that the fellow told you is likely partial fabrication. Yes, they might have been used by a team of some sort, but I haven't heard anything about the Prestige ever being a team-only issue. Sounds like hooey to me.

Originally Posted by T-Mar
The serial number indicates a 1985 build. The L could be a fortnight or month indicator, which could make it a 1985 or 1986 model. The 26.8mm post is indicative of Raleigh 555 tubing, which would seem to make it a 1985 model, unless it is one of the 1986 entry level models, as even the 1986 Grand Prix used Reynolds 531C.
Early '86 model then, frame built in '85. Remember, it takes a while for those things to get shipped across the Pacific - production on the upcoming year model has to start early. The '85 catalog also definitively states the color as the Blueberry/chrome combination, while all the '86 models received the pastels - pretty much enough to prove the machine as being built with the intentions of it being an 1986 model in the first place.

-Kurt
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Old 05-23-08, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
It is a 1986 (check the serial number) Prestige. -Kurt
yes, looks just like that red/maroon one pictured. built mine all Campagnolo NR, except headset is Japanese as fork tube already cut too short for NR.
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Old 05-23-08, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dbakl
yes, looks just like that red/maroon one pictured. built mine all Campagnolo NR, except headset is Japanese as fork tube already cut too short for NR.
Interesting - factory cut? Have a photo?

-Kurt
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Old 05-23-08, 09:55 PM
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Were all four years made with the Reynolds 555 SL tubing?
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Old 05-23-08, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by BlankCrows
Were all four years made with the Reynolds 555 SL tubing?
Raleigh 555SL tubing, to be exact. The 555 - and if I am not mistaken, 575 - terms were used only from '83-'85.

They apparently wised up in '86 and badged them as Reynolds 531 for this year only. As to the legitimacy of any of these claims remains to be seen. I'd wager that these things are most likely equipped with Tange 2. T-Mar would say Reynolds 501.

-Kurt
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Old 05-24-08, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by dbakl
yes, looks just like that red/maroon one pictured. built mine all Campagnolo NR, except headset is Japanese as fork tube already cut too short for NR.
I had the same problem with my Nottingham-built Raleigh frame. It was a type sold as a frameset, and the fork came (I was original purchaser in 1985) only 35 mm longer than the headtube. I've been able to use a Campy SR headset, but only by getting rid of the "correct" 4mm thick locknut washer, and using a generic one as thin as I could find. It really was intended (per the 1984 Raleigh catalog) for a Tange Levin headset -- these come with either 33 or 39 mm stack, depending on which "Levin" you get. I would imagine that most of the Japanese Raleighs were constructed to use a shorter stack, similarly.

I don't think there's any shame in using a Tange headset, but I didn't know better when I built the bike.
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Old 05-24-08, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles Wahl
I had the same problem with my Nottingham-built Raleigh frame....It really was intended (per the 1984 Raleigh catalog) for a Tange Levin headset.
Very interesting to know - good to have it documented here as well. Was this a Team Pro, or Prestige, curiously?

-Kurt
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Old 05-24-08, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
Very interesting to know - good to have it documented here as well. Was this a Team Pro, or Prestige, curiously?
Nothing so famous -- it was branded "Gran Course" and sits below the Team Pro and 753 Pro Super on the framesets page of the 1984 catalog. I've prattled on about this before and won't bore you people any more about it; it's my Old Friend, best $250 I ever spent.
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Old 05-24-08, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Wahl
Nothing so famous -- it was branded "Gran Course" and sits below the Team Pro and 753 Pro Super on the framesets page of the 1984 catalog. I've prattled on about this before and won't bore you people any more about it; it's my Old Friend, best $250 I ever spent.
Gran Course? Never heard of it - perhaps as I haven't seen the catalog in its entirety (framesets are not listed in the existing PDF's). Do you have a scan of the page?

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Old 05-24-08, 04:46 PM
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Here's the catalog page -- it's among Mark Bulgier's collection:
https://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalog...4/ral84_15.jpg

And here's my bike:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/1317574...7602038790012/
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Old 05-25-08, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
Raleigh 555SL tubing, to be exact. The 555 - and if I am not mistaken, 575 - terms were used only from '83-'85.

They apparently wised up in '86 and badged them as Reynolds 531 for this year only. As to the legitimacy of any of these claims remains to be seen. I'd wager that these things are most likely equipped with Tange 2. T-Mar would say Reynolds 501.

-Kurt
Well, I used to think that, but now I'm leaning towards Tange. It makes more sense, based on the frames' origin and seat post sizing. However, would it not make more sense that 555SL is probably Tange 1, with 555T being Tange 2 and 555MT being Tange MTB? Of course, there is no indication anywhere on the stickers that it even seamless, so we could be talking the lower grades of seamed tubing.
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Old 02-01-09, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar
Well, I used to think that, but now I'm leaning towards Tange. It makes more sense, based on the frames' origin and seat post sizing. However, would it not make more sense that 555SL is probably Tange 1, with 555T being Tange 2 and 555MT being Tange MTB? Of course, there is no indication anywhere on the stickers that it even seamless, so we could be talking the lower grades of seamed tubing.
Sorry to revive an old thread, but I have another data point on the Raleigh 555T. My 1984 Raleigh Portage has Raleigh 555T. The seat post size is 26.8, same as my tange 2 Schwinn Voyageur. When I removed the fork, I found this:

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Old 02-02-09, 09:32 AM
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Nice find!

Given the snow (and road salt) on the ground, I haven't ridden my Raleigh in a couple of months. I wouldn't be surprised if it was Tange. If I recall, my late '80's Bianchi Brava (Japanese-made) was Tange, and this bike feels similar, and not so much like the Italian tubing I've ridden. Thanks for the post!
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Old 02-02-09, 09:45 AM
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There was another machine with Tange.4.C about recently... begs the question whether it is Tange or not.

-Kurt
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