supergymnast

Hi There - I just bought an older Ross Europa ten speed for $60 on craigslist in NYC. I'm a newbie at working on a bike so I really appreciate any advice/expertise you might have.

I don't like the paint on the bike(color and condition), so I've taken the ENTIRE bike apart to sand it to the metal and repaint. Now I've decided it's also a good opportunity to degrease/clean all bearings and regrease before painting, since the original grease is rock hard.
My Main issue is this - I live in Manhattan and quickly found that ten speed travel is not a practical way for me to get around town.. so I've decided to convert it to a 5 speed. My question is: Can I do this by simply removing the 2nd larger/outside chainring(leaving one smaller chainring which is already attached to the pedal axel, and is 6 1/2 " diameter), and continue to use the original rear cassette/cluster and original rear derailleur. The rear wheel has a 5 sprocket cluster. My idea is to run a cable back from a new single 5 speed controller. I guess I'll have to shorten the chain and remove the front derailer as well.
Not sure if this factors in but my wheels are 26 ". Will this work, or do I need a more appropriate derailleur? Thanks for helping!

Alex

John E

Sorry, Alex, you lost me. No one is forcing you to shift the front gears -- just leave the left lever in the low-gear position and shift the right. If you ever have a decent downhill or a tailwind, you'll still be able to take advantage of your upper gear range. Removing the outer chainring, which is not an option on any crankset with an integral spider and outer ring, accomplishes nothing. Similarly, the only possible benefit of removing the front derailleur is the elimination of chain rub in some of the extreme gear ratios.

One more thought -- if you frequently find yourself using the small-small crosschain combination, you are going to accelerate chain and cog wear dramatically. If you want this gear ratio, you are far better off getting it with the outer chainring and the middle cog.

awc380

Yeah, just rebuild it all clean and greased-like. You might as well leave the few extra parts on. The front derailleur will at least ensure less chain drop-offs.

supergymnast

Hills? what hills. I've been getting mixed advice on this one. But I still don't want the extra gears.. aren't there five speed bikes anyway. I just found such a modification on some girls website, where she removed the larger chainring on a ten speed, and only had 1 cable from the rear derailer to a single shifter... no front derailer. She says she's been riding it everyday as a commuter bike in nyc for the last two years and claims it's the perfect city bike. What you're saying is to make it a five speed I just need to get a 5 speed shifter, with cable going to rear derailer, but if there is only one cable on a five speed, why would anyone need a front derailer? I'm confused.

cudak888 

Point is, nobody is forcing you to use the larger chainwheel up front. It is easier to build the machine back up with the parts you have then to start hunting for a single downtube (or stem) shifter along with shorter chainring bolts.

That said, the chances of dropping the chain due to deflection of the chain (Google "chainline") is much more possible with a single front chainring on a derailer-equipped machine then with a machine equipped with a front derailer. In the case of the double front chainring, the front derailer prevents the chain from jumping off either ring when you are at either extremity of the rear cluster. A five-speed machine doesn't have this protection, and the only reason single-speeds do not have this concern is because the chain is kept taut by the rear axle placement - not by a relatively easygoing derailer cage spring.

Take care,

-Kurt

supergymnast

thanks Kurt - I completely understand now. You are right, and I will rebuild it with it's given components for now, but based on the new info I have decided to go with a 5 speed internal hub. There are some nice vintage hubs out there, and also rebuilds from what I hear. Maybe a Sturmey Archer 5 speed from the '60's?

dusty99

I just did something similar, partly because I like the cleaner look of one chainring, and partly because I tend to get grease spots on my pants from the large ring! You will need a set of sorter chainring bolts, the longer ones will not fit when you remove the outer ring. Leave the front derailer so that it will keep the chain in line whithout shortening it. You can fine tune the chain line on the front as you move across the cassette (L-H), with the derailer acting as a guide. If you remove it, then my guess is that by the 10th time the chain pops off and you have chain grease on your hands, you'll wish you hadn't. I went the extra step of researching the maximum cog size for my derailer and finding a freewheel that size, so I have a good gear range (11-26 x 42). Save the big ring and bolts and the process is completely reversible, should you decide to run the bike stock.

supergymnast

Thanks Dusty - yeah, I'm with you on that - a cleaner look and as few parts/rings/cables on my bike as possible. But I really only use 5 speeds max, so that's why I'm looking into internal hubs now. Does anyone know if a new/old Sturmey Archer 5 speed internal hub from the 60's(still in the box, unused) will need to be taken apart and serviced, or is it likely that it will be good to go?

dusty99

...nt

cudak888 

I love the Sturmey's for upright-bar roadsters, but I have a particular dislike for their hubs on road machines. The S5 series are geared too wide for my liking, and I've never been comfortable standing up on them - doesn't matter how well I have them adjusted, I have succeeded in getting them to slip.

-Kurt

supergymnast

I stand up while riding about 95% of the time... do you think it was that particular bike/hub that had the slipping problem?

cudak888 

I have been successful in getting every Sturmey AW in the fleet to slip - and not standing up either. In my experience, Sturmey cables/barrels have a habit of coming out of adjustment just enough after 6 months to warrant re-adjustment for fear of it slipping. Far as I am concerned, I'm not going to play chicken such as that with my rear hub.

If you stand 95% of the time - forget it.

-Kurt

awc380

I'm afraid I am 100% in agreement here as well.

nlerner

I went to a single chainring on the front on my wife's mixte so that I could install a chainguard. I also have a single front chainring and a rear gear cluster on my beater Bridgestone CB-1. There's one particular gearing sequence that'll often throw the chain off the crank, but mostly it stays on.

Neal

supergymnast

what happens on the CB-1 when you change gears one by one , up the cluster and then back down?

supergymnast

OK, you guys are bumming me out a little.. seriously, there must be an internal thats more reliable than what you're describing!

cudak888 

Sturmey's latest hubs are anti-slip, if I am not mistaken.

That said, I have found that a Shimano Nexus 4-speed will slip the same as you would expect from a Sturmey if you do not have it adjusted. More tolerance for error on the Shimano hub, but it'll still do it.

-Kurt

supergymnast

aesthetically I prefer the older ones.. an adjustment every 6 months will be fine. Do you have anything, or have you ever had a five speed internal hub?

awc380

It seems like a lot of effort to go to just to not have 10 speeds.
Why not just rock it as it is and acquire pieces/parts to build up a better suited/dedicated internally geared bombproof commuter?

Charles Wahl

a. A 60s Sturmey-Archer 5 speed requires two shifters, one for the three middle gears, and one for the highest and lowest.

b. Two-chainring bikes favor low gears on the small chainwheel, and high gears on the large chainwheel, for the reasons given above. If you expect to use all five rear sprockets with one chainwheel effectively, it would be best to get it centered on the rear cluster. This might be done by adding shims between the fixed cup of the bottom bracket and the bike's BB casting, but you'd have to make sure that you have enough threads left on the adjustable cup (left side, looking forward) to still get the lockring on it securely. An alternative would be to fit a crank spindle that's 2-3 mm wider/narrower on the drive side (probably 4-6 mm overall) and use the inside/outside of the crank arm for mounting your chainwheel, respective to that choice. Sticking with the current setup, but ditching one of the chainrings, might restrict you to use of only four of five sprockets on the rear, without excessive wear or possible malfunction.

c. 5-speed internal gear hubs do have a wider range of gearing than you could get in a 5-speed derailer cluster. A Sturmey hub would give you the equivalent of a 13-15-19-24-28. That's not ideal for a city with not that many hills (I live in Manhattan too) -- I use one that goes from 13-26 with seven gears, and I wish they were closer sometimes for city riding. I would suggest a newer 5-speed or even a 7-speed internal gear hub, and learning to discipline yourself not to stand on the pedals -- the advice about slipping is really serious! Or, get a 7-speed freewheel and spread your rear stays a bit (you can do that without permanently bending the frame, which should be done by a competent shop, but it makes changing the rear tire on the road a bit more of a challenge). Or make up a 5-speed freewheel with a closer range of gears, and I'd get a slightly smaller chainwheel paired with "normal" gears in the rear. Like a 36 or 38 in front, and a 13-15-17-19-21 on the rear -- you might even be able to find that freewheel on eBay. Be practical -- decide what gear you're most comfortable riding everyday, and make that your center gear on the freewheel. How small you can go on the chainwheel depends on the bolt circle diameter of your crank (see the immortal Sheldon Brown on how to measure that). 41 for 144, 39 for 130, 34 for 110.

d. In the City, and in all-weather riding, it's a bonus not to have to clean derailer and freewheel, particularly if you are a commuter and not maintenance-obsessed. That's a vote for an internal-gear setup. There's a reason why you see so many fixed and single-speed bikes here. The Shimano Nexus and newest Sturmey-Archer hubs are narrower range, and not that expensive as an everyday-use investment -- though they might require a rear dropout spacing that's seriously larger than what you have on a five-speed derailer bike.

e. Sheldon Brown's website is an invaluable source for customizing a bike to your needs. Just put "issue-in-question sheldon brown" into Google to find almost anything bike-related covered in amazing detail.

supergymnast

Thanks Charles! That was enlightening for sure.
My front chainwheel is a 39. It's a one piece crankset, so the smaller chainwheel is 'fixed to the cranks and thats the size I want. As far as the rear freewheel cluster, it's a 14-17-20-24-28, so I should go with a 13-15-17-19-21 instead and I'm good? I'm gonna look into the 'centering' more - I don't fully grasp it logistically. I found a bunch of vintage 5 speed bikes on ebay as examples, all having one chainwheel in front, no front derailer, and a 5 cluster freewheel with derailer in back. How do these work without stressing the cogs/chains, etc. Here are a couple of examples:

https://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Schwinn-...QQcmdZViewItem

https://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-SCHWINN-...QQcmdZViewItem

anyway - I guess it's because those were built to work as 5 speeds, with things already centered properly as you pointed out. I am excited about doing all this work to make the bike I want. I only want one bike, and I'm learning so much already... a week ago I didn't know anything!
I still want an internal - looking into options... again thanks for so many great suggestions and information - much obliged.

supergymnast

Thanks Charles! That was enlightening for sure.
My front chainwheel is a 39. It's a one piece crankset, so the smaller chainwheel is 'fixed to the cranks and thats the size I want. As far as the rear freewheel cluster, it's a 14-17-20-24-28, so I should go with a 13-15-17-19-21 instead and I'm good? I'm gonna look into the 'centering' more - I don't fully grasp it logistically. I found a bunch of vintage 5 speed bikes on ebay as examples, all having one chainwheel in front, no front derailer, and a 5 cluster freewheel with derailer in back. How do these work without stressing the cogs/chains, etc. Here are a couple of examples:

https://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Schwinn-...QQcmdZViewItem

https://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-SCHWINN-...QQcmdZViewItem

anyway - I guess it's because those were built to work as 5 speeds, with things already centered properly as you pointed out. I am excited about doing all this work to make the bike I want. I only want one bike, and I'm learning so much already... a week ago I didn't know anything!
I still want an internal - looking into options... again thanks for so many great suggestions and information - much obliged.

SoreFeet

A repaint is way too much effort for an old high ten steel bike. Get your priority focused on improving the drivetrain. High ten bikes are not going to decay very rapidly Ruff up the paint and spray. It will be more durable that way.

supergymnast

Harris cyclery has Suntour 5 speed freewheels for sale including a 13-21 and a 13-19... they say they are made well but don't shift as well as modern freewheels, and suggest buying a whipperman chail(NOS)

supergymnast

I appreciate that - yeah - I'm with you on the paint job.. but too late! I just sanded it down to the metal by hand, because so many claimed it was the best way. As I've said before, this is all great experience for me. Why not perfect my bike building skils on a cheaper, low end bike, and make it as good as I can?