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Campagnolo Record hub: 120 to 126mm: what spacer am I missing?

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Campagnolo Record hub: 120 to 126mm: what spacer am I missing?

Old 06-28-08, 01:00 PM
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Campagnolo Record hub: 120 to 126mm: what spacer am I missing?

Bout to lose my mind. And this time it's not the fumes in my work room, mainly because I never made it that far.

It appears that I have not one, but two rear hubs which are spaced to 120mm. For now, let's just deal with the first one. NOS 32h, 120mm spaced. I really need to get this hub shipped off to Urbanknight for a wheel build, but first I need to get it spaced to 126mm to fit the 7speed freewheel I have planned for it. So I bought the correct length axle, thinking I had some spare spacers from another hub rebuild I had done last year. Well, apparently the only spacer I have is the single double grooved 10mm one, just like the one that's on the 120mm hub now. And of course I can't get the freewheel off my one and only 126mm hub to see what what I'm looking for (and may not even have at all) looks like.

So, does anyone have a good clear photo of a 126mm spaced hub, know a good easy to find replacement (guessing the hardware store will have something, but suggestions on where to start would be appriciated), or best yet have a few of the little things laying around they wouldn't mind dropping in the mail my direction.

On a side note, did you know it is technically possible to run a Sachs 7 speed freewheel on a 120mm spaced wheel? I could even get it in the big ring, little cog without hitting the chain on the dropout. It's too close for comfort, but apparently possible. I discovered this as I was going to pull the spacers off my tubular wheelset's hub to put on the hub I was planning on shipping out. Only to discover it too was 120mm spaced. Which then made me go back to the bike I had the wheel sitting on and figure out how the heck it the freewheel was clearing the dropout. Learn something new every day... guess I haven't learned to think through my project needs completely yet though.
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Old 06-28-08, 05:28 PM
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I'm no expert mechanic, but not all 7-speed freewheels are the same width. So I think that the spacers might best be set up empirically: mount the freewheel on the hub, and put enough axle spacers on the right so that the FW clears the chainstay on your particular bike. Then add spacers on the left to make up whatever you need to fill the space between your dropouts. This assumes that your dropouts are equidistant, plumb-wise, from your brake bridge hole. Then, send the hub off to be built, and the wheel-builder just centers the rim on the dropout spacing you've provided.

Done this way, dish will be the minimum that you need for that freewheel. If you plan on using a wider freewheel, then you need to allow for more space on the right (wheel will be more dished) before adding spacers on the left.

Online, BikeToolsEtc carries rear axle spacers in 1, 3, 6 and 12 mm widths. LooseScrews is another source; LBS may have them too.

Last edited by Charles Wahl; 06-28-08 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 06-28-08, 05:58 PM
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My 1960 120mm high-flange Campagnolo Record rear hub has a single concave aluminum spacer.

My ca. 1980 126mm low-flange Campagnolo Gran Sport rear hub has a wider aluminum spacer with two concavities, which give it the appearance of a double spacer.

I have found several 126mm hubs which will take a standard 6-speed freewheel, but not a 7-speed, without a little tinkering, including removal of dork disc (if any) and addition of a 2mm washer on the drive side, which in turn requires re-centering the bearing cones.
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Old 06-28-08, 06:26 PM
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And that's what I'm talkin' about -- my Suntour New Winner Ultra-7 freewheel fits in 126 mm dropouts just fine, mounted on a Record hub or a Shimano 600 hub (I've used it with both). Other 7-speed FWs won't. I, too, have the double-groove spacer on the right side of the Record hub spaced 126 mm.
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Old 06-28-08, 08:54 PM
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Here's another question, when hubs went from 120 to 126mm, was all of the additional space placed on the right hand side? Guess since I now apparently have two wheels to fix, I'll be needing another axle anyways from loosescrews... unless my shop has something, guess it's time to head over there tomorrow after the ride.
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Old 06-28-08, 11:20 PM
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getting a 7 block into and onto a 120mm paced hub, assuming as original, might appear to fit, but the chain may never make it up past the seat stay.

120 to 126 was the change of skewer axle, longer hub axle and the mentioned doublegrove spacer, while the hub shell basically stayed the same, I felt the hubs with the imprinted text advising the threading vs, groove, no groove were 1mm different. Later hubs and lock nuts are also a bit different, and are not directly interchangeable without checking the working dimensions, they will work, but test first. I have almost always found an 7 block, needs 127+ mm, I have removed the off freewheel washer between the locknut and cone to get the numbers (as seen on earlier hubs) but dish suffers, some rims such as Rigida just are not good for this build, the holes are just too inline, no stagger.

Way back, I had every set of wheels set up the same, to which I found the critical dimension being the freewheel land to the drive side locknut, that way with same brand freewheels, no adjusting was necessary. When racing, if you needed your spare set from your support roadside or from the support car, no one wants to adjust things THEN. The race officials got mad once when I wanted to give them a support Bike, but that was a long time ago. My thought, don't search for my wheels, just hand me the bike, NOW, please.
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Old 06-29-08, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by cuda2k
Here's another question, when hubs went from 120 to 126mm, was all of the additional space placed on the right hand side? Guess since I now apparently have two wheels to fix, I'll be needing another axle anyways from loosescrews... unless my shop has something, guess it's time to head over there tomorrow after the ride.
I went through this on my Woodrup build, to use a Sachs-Maillard 7-speed. I ended up with an OLD of 128 mm on the hub, with some frame stretch. Seems the clearances on the inner faces of different dropouts are not the same. I found a messy old LBS that had a bin of axles and spacers, and I pawed through them until I had an assortment, then drew my credit card and fired. I should have taken photos, but sorry!

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Old 06-29-08, 07:21 AM
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buy (2) 3 mm spacers from lbs.

mines sells they fro $.75 each

they look like thick aluminum washers.

remove 1 cone nut (any side)

slide spacer on until flush with cone.

reinstall cone.

repeat for the other side.

really, this isn't hard.
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Old 06-29-08, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage
getting a 7 block into and onto a 120mm paced hub, assuming as original, might appear to fit, but the chain may never make it up past the seat stay.

120 to 126 was the change of skewer axle, longer hub axle and the mentioned doublegrove spacer, while the hub shell basically stayed the same, I felt the hubs with the imprinted text advising the threading vs, groove, no groove were 1mm different. Later hubs and lock nuts are also a bit different, and are not directly interchangeable without checking the working dimensions, they will work, but test first. I have almost always found an 7 block, needs 127+ mm, I have removed the off freewheel washer between the locknut and cone to get the numbers (as seen on earlier hubs) but dish suffers, some rims such as Rigida just are not good for this build, the holes are just too inline, no stagger.
That's what I thought too. Which was part of why I thought I was losing my mind. Tape measure and my eye was telling me one thing, everything I thought I knew about freewheel spacing was telling me another. True it was darn close to hitting, more so than my 126mm hub, but I saw daylight from every angle.

Originally Posted by Road Fan
I went through this on my Woodrup build, to use a Sachs-Maillard 7-speed. I ended up with an OLD of 128 mm on the hub, with some frame stretch. Seems the clearances on the inner faces of different dropouts are not the same. I found a messy old LBS that had a bin of axles and spacers, and I pawed through them until I had an assortment, then drew my credit card and fired. I should have taken photos, but sorry!

Road Fan
No worries, I'll be heading to the local shop once they open at noon. Hopefully one of the older guys are at the repair desk when I roll in. I'll just take the hub, my axle, etc up there and figure out what I need. Guess mostly I just need the same amount of spacing on the drive side as my other 126mm hub, so that the derailleur stops are in the same place making it possible to swap wheels back and forth without fear of over shifting.

Originally Posted by sirpoopalot
buy (2) 3 mm spacers from lbs.

mines sells they fro $.75 each

they look like thick aluminum washers.

remove 1 cone nut (any side)

slide spacer on until flush with cone.

reinstall cone.

repeat for the other side.

really, this isn't hard.
Don't you mean lock nut? If I remove the cone, put spacer in, replace cone, that would put spacer, not cone, against the bearings. But I get what you meant. You're saying that I want to increase spacing 3mm on each side.

I've always got to do things the hard way.
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Old 06-29-08, 08:33 AM
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I looked at this issue using Spocalc and Sutherland's.

In Spocalc I compared the entries for Campy high-flange hub spaced 120 with NR low-flange hub spaced 127. They both have the same overall width between flanges. Centerline of wheel (not hub barrel) to right flange is 24 mm for the former, and 20 mm for the latter. That means that the hub "moved" 4 mm between 120 and 127 spacing. If you add in half the extra spacing (3.5 per side from center of wheel to go from 120 to 127), then there's 7.5 mm difference between the hub and the outside face of right locknut.

In Sutherland's, if you have the version available online
https://icelord.net/bike/
check pages 10-5 through 10-7. For all the 7-speed narrow spacing freewheels, the dimension between the freewheel seat on the hub to the right locknut outside face ("Dimension A") seems to be 36 mm, and OLD is listed as 126. For the 5-speed and narrow-6 FWs, that dimension is 29 or 30, depending on whether you consider OLD to be 120 or 121. So, going from 120 to 126, the difference is 7 (this agrees with Spocalc, in that if the OLD were 127, another half mm would be added).

As it happens, I have the Campy NR hub handy and assembled, that I've used with 7-speed narrow Suntour freewheel. Its Dimension A is indeed just shy of 36 mm.

Sutherland's has a caveat about having flattened ends on the right stays. Older bikes don't have those, and would likely need more space on the right side -- that's one reason why doing it empirically is the safest procedure, in my opinion. OTOH, if you screw up a little, you can always throw on a shim under each locknut to increase the overall spacing, and provide more clearance -- what RoadFan calls "frame stretch".

Re the question on axle length: standard is no more than 10 mm over the OLD. My Record axle is 134.5 mm with 126 spacing. Sheldon Brown said that the minimum was not very much, and he even had a bike with none -- just enough to locate the wheel when installing it -- the QR tension and teeth on the locknuts hold the thing in place while riding. So, theoretically, if you have an axle that will provide any projection at all over your locknuts, you could do with that.

If you're going to get a new axle, be sure to get the period correct datecode (not -- snark, snark)!

Last edited by Charles Wahl; 06-29-08 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 06-29-08, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by cuda2k
Don't you mean lock nut? If I remove the cone, put spacer in, replace cone, that would put spacer, not cone, against the bearings. But I get what you meant. You're saying that I want to increase spacing 3mm on each side.

I've always got to do things the hard way.
well, a cone is not a nut, just a cone.

but yes, i believe locknut is the proper nomenclature. to me cone-nut and locknut are one and the same- but i can see where it would lead to a slip up to others.

i guess you got the gist anyways.

carry on!
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Old 06-29-08, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by sirpoopalot
well, a cone is not a nut, just a cone.

but yes, i believe locknut is the proper nomenclature. to me cone-nut and locknut are one and the same- but i can see where it would lead to a slip up to others.
Some French hubs have two locknuts on the freewheel side, one for the cones, and the outer for the spacers as they were needed to be removed to use the thick atom remover.

I do not question 'cuda's view that it fits, BUT, I have seen others fooled when they tried it, just to wheel back into the shop with the chain wedged between the freewheel and stay, remember the chain must rise Above the cog to enter or exit the teeth, and that is where the scratches and gouges can come from, even with stays flattened as the Italian's often did, test on the workstand, and try to make it fail, shift quickly back and forth, if it goes well, then test ride, I do understand you are working with unlaced hubs, so there will be some faith required and do you see the glass half empty or full?

One last item, while not mentioned, the derailluer can make a difference, some overshift to work well, also, the design modification Campagnolo made to the Super Record where the jockey wheel bolts are countersunk and enter from the spoke side with the nuts (as opposed to threaded plate inside as before) provided a bit more room, when the 7's and 8's came out, spoke plucking of the cage was common with the older design, this required filing the upper cage to provide silence, and safety. A few guys had their spokes eat they system for lunch, and often take out the dropout too.
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Old 06-29-08, 12:02 PM
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Back from the shop, two 3mm spacers in hand. We have guests coming over this evening so best not to get too greasy today. While they are fellow cyclists, not the best idea all the same. So the rebuild gets pushed till tomorrow, when I will pull the rear wheel off that is currently 126mm, and try to get this new hub set up as closely to that as possible. My intent is to be able to swap these two wheelsets (one Campy Omega laced to Campy Record, the other Mavic Open rims laced to Campy Record) between my two Gazelle frames. One running an 83 Nuovo Record, the other a circa 86 Super Record rear derailleurs.
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Old 06-29-08, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by sirpoopalot
buy (2) 3 mm spacers from lbs.

mines sells they fro $.75 each

they look like thick aluminum washers.

remove 1 cone nut (any side)

slide spacer on until flush with cone.

reinstall cone.

repeat for the other side.

really, this isn't hard.
The additional spacer/s go only on the freewheel side. A longer axle is required. You can make the space up from multiple smaller ones or a single one. I measure locknut width with my calipers. Oh, and if wheel already built it will need to be redished.
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Old 10-23-23, 12:48 PM
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In my case, I am trying to install a wheel with 120 hub,and 5-speed freewheel to a 126 frame. I just swapped whole set of inner parts of the 120 hub, including cones , lock nuts and axle for that I sourced from a 126hub. the freewheel, I keep using the 5-speed one.



wheel is on bike now,looks just in the center of the dropout. I haven’t noticed any problem,based on my limited experience. But I read about people talking about ‘re-dishing the wheel’, something I have not heard of before, and worried about spokes breaking.



Is it needed to re-dish the wheel,in my case? Or would someone guide me a bit how to judge if the wheel needs to be re-dished. Thanks.
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Old 10-23-23, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Yoyo2012
would someone guide me a bit how to judge if the wheel needs to be re-dished?
No matter the wheel (front or rear), you can always easily check the dish using a flat table, two equal stacks of cd jewel cases (or similar), and a metric ruler. Sheldon tells you how:

"Place two piles of blocks/books on a tabletop to support the rim at two places opposite one another. The distance from the tabletop to the hub locknut on the underside should be the same, no matter which side of the wheel is down."

from: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

If one side measures more than the other, loosen the nipples on that side of the hub and tighten the other side the same amount.
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Old 10-24-23, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage
Some French hubs have two locknuts on the freewheel side, one for the cones, and the outer for the spacers as they were needed to be removed to use the thick atom remover.
This is still the preferred method as

a) you can have the locknut right up against the cone and make SURE it won't move (with a spacer between, the flexing of the axle along that section it can work it loose); and
b) if the outer nut comes loose when you are adjusting the cone on the non-drive side it's not a problem.
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Old 10-25-23, 02:26 AM
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This is funny as I recently switched a 126mm record rear hub to 120mm to suit a '73 Paramount. I had found a set of Record hubs at an estate sale early summer, the rear with the 126mm spacing, hubs were complete with skewers. The axle in the rear hub was broken in two and just held in place by the skewer when I purchased the set. I took a photo of the original broken axle and spacers. The price for Campy parts is always ridiculous, so I took a 126mm axle, cones/spacers, nuts, bearing balls, out of an old Joytech hub, cut it down to suit a 120mm frame and it worked fine. In the past I have juggled spacers on rear hub axles to either side of a hub and re-dished wheels to get the rear sprocket I want lined up with the front sprocket I want to use. Also I build up my own wheels so I am not at the mercy of other mechanics and what they do. Any time you mess around building up bikes from parts, changing things, then you can not count on the spacers and other bike parts to all work by just bolting them together, you really have to be a good cycle mechanic so you can alter parts and get everything to line up and function like it should.

The original Campy rear 126mm axle with it's spacers which was broken in half and replaced with off-brand parts;


The rear Record hub after conversion to 120mm and being swapped it into a nice Araya 700c rim that used to have Shimano 6-speed cassette hub;


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