can anyone identify this frame by its lugs?
 

I recently found this bike at a garage sale and snapped it up. The paint is poor, but the lugs are gorgeous! It has been stripped of all decals and/or paint and head badges over the years. I was wondering if anyone could identify the frame? The parts that looked like they could have been original are the campy headset and cable guides, and the mavic 801 rear derailleur. It had no front derailleur, and everything else was japanese and newer. any ideas?

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4...37/vinbike.jpg

thanks, zak

Is the Pivo stem french sized w/a french headset?

Pics of the seat lug

Dimensions of and any drilling locations for the [outline of the missing] headbadge

Looks like it had a round headbadge, so I would guess a 1974-1979 Motobecane, possibly a Grand Record or Grand Jubile that was built up from a used frame & fork, although the fork looks a bit different. Pictures of the seatstay to seat post junction would help with an ID.

More pics needed. Take some good shots of the head tube and a pic of the underside of the bottom bracket. Also the seat tube lugs as mentioned earlier. Are there any serial nos. on the seat stays or on the upper portion of the seat tube just below the lug? My initial , much too early guess is an Allegro.

I'm thinking Motobecane now. Lot more Motobecanes out there than Allegros.

Grand Record had the Nervex lugs which is what those look an awful lot like. The Grand Jubile didn't, at least, not typically.

Carlton. An early 1970s raleigh one?

I will take some more pics and post them later this evening. What you see as a head badge outline was a sticker that I peeled off. As far as determining a french stem and headset size, what do I measure and what would a French size be? I have a very accurate digital caliper, so measuring shouldn't be a problem.

the stem insert will be 22.0mm on a french bike as opposed to the more common english 22.2mm

Yes; those appear to be Nervex Professional lugs.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7...58Nervexp3.jpg

Remove the Pivo stem and it *might* be marked on the quill, otherwise a FR quill will measure less than 22.2mm, typically a fraction under 22mm. A Raleigh would have 3 rivet holes in the headtube, unless it had an oval Carlton badge. The seat cluster will tell much more than head badge holes, and the size of the seat post would help, too.
Nice find!

+1 to that.

Both Grand Records and Grand Jubiles had Nervex lugs up until about 1977.

But addressing the OP's question... if the paint and the headset are original it can't be a Motobecane. Because The GR and GJ both came with the Stronglight headset and were painted either silver, black, or red (early models were yellow or blue but usually with the contrasting color on the lugs - like black)

The Motobecane models that had Campagnolo headsets (which appears to be in the OP's photo) were the Le Champion and Team Champion and those came with Prugnat lugs.

One other question. Are there any numbers marked on the Bottom Bracket?

You appear to be correct! Based on the derailleurs alone on my Grand Jubile, which are Cyclone stamped UA front and TI rear (01/78 and 09/77 respectively) and the BB shell being stamped 0180, I have determined that mine is a 1980. Which puts it beyond 1977 and thus explains why it does not have Nervex lugs. I guess I should have dated it sooner than making a fool of myself :) Thanks.

Yeah, this is the easiest place to check if it's French. Many but not all bottom brackets will have the threading marked.

Looks like it's a nice frame!

Karl

French - remove the top nut on the headset. If you have a keyed steerer/lock washer, then it ain't. If you have a flat across the steerer/washer, then it's french sized.

edit: ignore this as everyone after me says to. Get out the calipers :)

That's *usually* true, but I know I'm not the only one who's had British bikes with flat-filed steerers...

I have a 60s Falcon fork that has a flat rather than a keyway. Also came with a Pivo stem.

My French setup is keyed....

Alright, did some more disassembly, took some more pics. I tried to get the stem out, and it is wedged in there really tight. I think I dropped off the wedge nut, and can twist the stem back and forth with some force, but it will not move up or down. I measured the quill with my caliper and it clocked at 22.1mm.


A pic of the entire frame, so you can see the original paint (and newer rust):

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4...kes/vinfr1.jpg


It definitely has a Nervex Professional lugset. Its a later version, with the whale tail. No drill holes for a head badge.
The front of the head tube:

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4...kes/vinfr4.jpg


The seatpost lug:

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4...kes/vinfr3.jpg

The seatpost that is in there is a 26.4, and it seems to fit properly. And out of curiosity, what is that little chrome thing with the downward point on the seat tube?


The bottom of the bottm bracket shell: stamped 112114

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4...kes/vinfr2.jpg


You guys have been awesome with all of the help. Just thought I'd let you know.
Since its so trashed paint-wise, I'm considering getting it painted or powder-coated. Any opinions? Is it even worth that investment?

Thanks again!

Peg for a frame pump.

I'd guess the "little chrome thing" used to hold a pump? I cant make out the writing on the binding bold on the seattube collar, does it say Simplex? Just wondering.

It's a pump peg. For attaching a pump to the frame.

I'd say so. Looks like a nice old Carlton. I'd clean up or re-chrome the stays and fork blades and get it stripped and resprayed with the same metallic blue.

aha! brilliant.

thanks.