Bottomfeeder

Hey all;

I've received some great help and encouragement over the last few months here in regards to my 80's SR Semi Pro refurbishment - no to be confused with a restorations, by any stretch of the imagination.

So now here is my latest problem. Despite all the good advice I've received, I cannot get the brakes to work satisfactorily... can't get them to stay centered, the front is flexing alarmingly and the feel isn't great. This is a drag, because the rest of the bike is working really nicely. But the brakes might very well just be worn out.

Last night I told my wife I was ready` to donate the thing to the local coop in order to save my sanity. But this morning as I was riding to work I found myself reconsidering that decision, since I lack the money for a new sporty racing type bike and that's what got me into this in the first place. If only I could find a newer brake... I'm pretty good at installing and tuning new stuff. Vintage stuff? Maybe I'm not so good.

So long story short (too late for that, I guess) can anyone recommend a new road brake which will fit these 80's Japanese frames in place of the original Shimano 600 Arabasque? I need something pretty cheap, since I don't want to end up spending as much on brakes as I have in the whole bike.

Thanks again. DanO

twentyflights

just curious, did you lube the mounting threads as well as the return springs? it seems like you would have, but sometimes there are small things you forget...

you could always look out for the exact same kind of brake or other single-pivot Shimano 600 brakes on eBay...since the dual-pivot brakes go for premiums, most single-pivots rarely go above $35 with shipping. Dia Compe sidepulls will also be good, cheap, and plentiful on eBay.

otherwise, if you have to go new, Tektro will be cheap.

Bottomfeeder

Can you tell me if the drilling is pretty universal? IE, newer brakes will fit the same holes? (Newbie question)

DanO

twentyflights

yeah it will...case in point, a couple months ago, i replaced Dia Compe single-pivots with Shimano 105 dual-pivots on my late-80s/early-90s Bianchi. occasionally i'll have issues with centering, but that's more an issue with old cable housing and untrue wheels...yeah i'm working on that

Bottomfeeder

I'm thinking about a set of these https://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?c...0Road%20Brakes At least I could send return them 'no questions asked' if they don't work out.

Any other 'bottomfeeder' suggestions?

I also found these https://www.ebikestop.com/tektro_r538...ach-BR7220.php (Lord, I know this is heresy to some around here. Should I take it to the Mechanics forum?) But it doesn't say whether or not the Tektro has a centering adjustment.

DanO

VintageR

Shimano 600 EX Arabesque brakes are amongst the worst vintage stuff I've ever used.
Switch 'em, maybe for centerpull brakes (e.g. Mafacs work great).

JunkYardBike

It looks like you'll need to either drill holes for the recessed nuts if you go modern, or find some work around (some people report success with swapping the front to the rear, then bolting the rear from the inside of the fork - not a recommendation, just what I've read).

There are also dual pivots with traditional nut mounts floating around out there. Ebay maybe? ebikestop used to have them, but I may have bought the last set. Search for Shimano RX100 or A550 model.

Or as VintageR suggests, solicit some recommendations for better performing single pivots or centerpulls.

Bottomfeeder

Well, that's a bit of a consolation anyway.

DanO

kpug505

+2 on the center pulls. I loves me some polished Mafacs! Coupled with some nice pads you'll have some great brakes....You'll need hangers at the seat post binder bolt and headset though.

Xlr8n

With a bit of tinkering, you should be able to get them to stay centered. The pivot needs to be tight with all of the appropriate washers in place. On older brakes I'd remove the springs and carefully spread them out a tad to assure they have the proper tension on the arms.
My other advice is that in some set-ups, the Kool-stop style pads may actually be too grippy for the rims and brake arms and that is why it is flexing and doesn't feel quite right. In my past experiences back in my BMX days, the Kool-stops would work awesome on some rim anodized surfaces but grip too quickly on others and as a result would work great on good brakes, but would cause some middle of the road and cheaper brakes to shudder and flex like crazy.

Walter

I'll lead you further to heresy. Whilst there are many good single pivot brakes out and about (Dia Compe's Royal Gran Compes come to mind) dual pivots do work very well, are (generally) more powerful and are easier to center. The ones you are looking at should have the centering screw (as far as I know all DP brakes do).

DPs have been around long enough to where some are quite affordable. Sheldon Brown's site has some easy directions on drilling the fork for the recessed bolt. I've done this myself and it is as easy as he states.

gr23932

I'll offer you a set of CLBs if you want to try them out. They were on a Peugeot Ventoux and they offered excellent stopping power and were very light of I remember right. PM me if interested.

Xlr8n

+1. If you absolutely can't get your current brakes to work to your satisfaction, I have the Dia Compe RGC's on mine and they are far and away the best side-pull brakes I've ever pulled a lever on. If you could find a set of those you'd have an easy swap and still be period-correct. Like these:

https://cgi.ebay.com/Dia-Compe-Royal-...QQcmdZViewItem

https://cgi.ebay.com/Royal-Gran-Compe...QQcmdZViewItem

gr23932

Not trying to divert this thread but I have a set of Dia Compe NGC500 brakes. How do they compare to the Royal ones??

Bottomfeeder

Thanks Walter. I'm off too search Sheldon's site for that fork drilling tutorial. It would really open up my options - pun intended.

DanO

Marrock

Walter

In case you're having trouble.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ra-e.html#recessed

Rabid Koala

Have you replaced your cable housing with "modern" lined housing? I have been amazed at what a difference it makes. It does not compress nearly as much as old housing, putting more power to the brakes.

I have Kool Stops on a Paramount with Weinmann brakes. They stop like no other Weinmanns I have ever had.

Bottomfeeder

I want to thank everyone for all their advice and support - especially those who offered to PM me about parts they had on hand. I ordered some Nashbar brakes... $30 for the set and I can always send them back if they seem too cheap. But I am, after all, the bottomfeeder. I also reviewed Sheldon's site about fitting new brakes to an old frame. Thanks for the link Walter. I'll let ya'll know how things turn out.

Providing we've got the brakes worked out, hopefully the wheels will stabilize. I re-laced the old hubs and rims (all of which looked pretty damn sound) with new spokes down at the Bicycle Kitchen's wheel building class. Thought I had 'em perfectly tensioned and true. But I've had to true them up multiple times during and after the first shake-down ride. And now there's a couple stubborn flat spots at the seems and such that are bothering me. Then again; I'm expecting perfection out of 25 year old hoops - and pretty light weight ones at that.

Come to think of it. I believe these were the same rims which came on my SR Professional model back in the day. I had to true them before leaving work every day. So I know I'll never be able to bomb down the truly rough roads I ride my Crosscheck over on my commute. I just want to ride this one on the path and out in the boonies.

DanO

Rabid Koala

I thought about my previous response that was less than complete. If you put new cable housing on the bike from one of those "bike tune up" kits like they sell at places like Wally World, that is not good housing. Get some at the LBS. You will be surprised at the difference.

miamijim

Bottomfeeder......take me 2 pictures.

1. A close up of the centerbolt arrangement behind the caliper and.....
2. A shot of your cable length as it goes into the calipers. Your pics aren't opening for me but it looks like your rear cable is OK on length but your front seems a little short.

bbattle

Does the rear brake have those shaped washers on either side of the round bridge? If they are not there, the brake will move under load.

See what I did on my Sprite:


Bolt wasn't long enough, and I didn't have a nut to fit so I temporarily used the recessed nut. No washers on either side to hold onto that round bridge bar, either. Had to drill the bridge out(not easy since there was a steel sleeve inside) and install a longer bolt. Brakes are the long reach Tektros(Rivendell Silver version)

Charles Wahl

You can get newer brakes if that suits you, but you posted about this previously, and I think the issue was pointing toward a lack of serrated washers that dig into the frame paint and hold the brake caliper in place (centering). If you don't have some means of fixing the caliper, they will rotate, no matter what type/brand they are. I'm not a big fan of the early Shimano and Dia-Compe sidepull calipers with the cable fixings on the "wrong" side, but that's just an aesthetic preference -- lots of people seem to use them with success on their vintage bikes.

With nutted brakes, there definitely should be some sort of toothed washer between the frame and the other brake parts on the brake bolt. Fork crowns come in two basic flavors, in terms of the profile provided at the brake hole -- either rounded (following the shape of the steerer tube) or flat, as seen on a lot of the Treks. Either one is OK with a flat, toothed washer. Rear brake bridges vary a lot, but your bike probably has one of two conditions: either the bridge is a simple tube (rounded), or it has a thickish washer brazed onto it (and painted with the frame) where the brake bolt passes through, providing a flat place against the caliper side.

In order to get the brakes properly affixed, and centered, in a way that they will not "de-center", the brake bolt needs to be tightened fairly well. The problem is that the bolt has the slot for the brake spring through it, so getting the precise rotation of the bolt installed into the fork crown or rear bridge can be fussy work. It's generally necessary to fiddle a bit, but in the end, it has to be tight, or it will move again. The part of the brake bolt with the slot for the spring generally has two flats milled in it that fit some kind of open end wrench in the 13/14/15 mm range, but it has to be a thin one -- people use a wheel cone wrench for this. if eadjusting after the caliper is installed on the bolt, which is almost always. The play in the caliper movement on the bolt is set by locknuts on the outer end of the bolt, and that's pretty touchy too, but can be done after the centering is done -- just enough play to permit free and reliable movement of the arms, while not allowing them to vibrate under compression of pads to rims. Otherwise brake squeal can result, and it's not that safe to have loose brakes, plus it wears out the caliper arm holes.

You should remove your calipers from the frame, and photograph the parts clearly, lined up sequentially: caliper with bolt, and all the parts from the frame side of the brake bolt. That way you'll get a more definitive response about the source of the problem, one that will allow you to stop grinding your teeth.

nlerner

See all the problem you can avoid if you ride a brakeless fixie (or just a rear coaster brake)?!

Neal

Road Fan

I agree, I hate'em! I've replaced them on one bike with some classic Campy NR's that I got cheap, and with Dura Ace 1st gen calipers on another.

Two big compatibility issues: nutted v. recessed bolts, and brake caliper reach. Within those constraints, and since you're not doing a restoration, look for a workable dual pivot.

I've had a lot of good results from paying strict attention to filing the housing ends flat and perpendicular to the cable pull, and using ferrules on the ends. Plus replace the housings and cable inners to get a plastic liner. Then you won't need to lube the cables.

Road Fan