Upgrading the drive train questions
 

I have a Raleigh Competition that I was thinking I might want to make more modern. The problem is, I would like to have a closely spaced cluster, but I want to add a a triple in front so I can still climb hills. Currently it has an old Raleigh-branded Suntour RD, and a Zeus crank. 52/42 and 16-32.

I see Veloce triple cranks and RDs on eBay pretty cheap - the triple as cheap as 50$. The deraillers seem pretty cheap, too. It would ruin the look of the bike, but it would make the gearing and the shifting more usable.

But the bike wouldn't look too good. Any comments or better ideas? I was thinking of going with upgraded vintage parts, but then I'd be in the same place I am now.

Apparently the earth was flater back in the day and they just didn't make wide-range, close ratio, triple set ups. Actually what they would have done is called a half-step plus granny where you'd have something like a 50/44/28 in front with a 5 or 6 speed 14-28 freewheel in back. Then you doubleshift the closely spaced front rings to keep the ratios close and use the granny for hills. I don't particularly like that set-up as you end up using the granny ring a lot if you ride in hilly country. Of course if you go 14-32 or 14-34 with a 5 cog freewheel you humungous gaps so my compromise is to convert to a 7 speed 13-32 and run a normal 52/40 in front. If you really want a triple, there are vintage triples, they just aren't that common. If that Zeus crank is 144mm bcd then you could get a triplizer middle ring from TA and make it into a triple. You probably need a longer spindle for the bb. That's most likely what I would do.

Measuring the chainwheel c-c is about 88-89mm. According to Shelton, that's a 151 BCD. It's a '69 Comp, so I suppose that makes sense, but it means replacing the chainwheels is about impossible. I'd prefer to keep the original hubs rather than replace w/something modern and then have to coldset the frame. It seems a lot easier just to replace the cranks. But in doing research, it seems then that the BB axle would be too short.

Maybe I should just throw on a new derailler to get what I have to work smoother. I just don't like how it changes gears now. If I could get it to change smooth in the back, then I could stick with what I have.

My big concern with that, is buying old deraillers is expensive, and they don't seem to work much better than what I have, and I have no idea if whatever I buy will work with a 32T in back. RIght now I have a Svelte on a hanger as an extention, plugged into the hanger that is built in on the drop out. Pretty sketchy and it doesn't change any better than any other derailer I've tried.

I'd like to just try a good quality modern derailler and see if that fixes everything, but I have no idea what will work.

All very fustrating.

A compact double front crank will go a long way towards giving you low enough gears for most hilly terrain without need for new derailleurs or bottom bracket and keeping the look of an older bike.

Yeah, you are going to put some thought into this one then. 151bcd is pretty limiting. 110mm bcd would be perfect - those were common during the 80's, definately Shimano and maybe Sun Tour, Sugino, et al. Essentially the same as a modern compact. My Panasonic has a triple Shimano 110/74 that would be just what you need. Of course they don't look quite the same as anything in the 60's but that would be the cheapest way to go. You could also go with a 50mm bcd crank (TA, Stronglight, Nervar) and use TA rings to build a nice 60's period double or triple but that will cost some bucks. For the rear you're in the same boat. Nothing from the 60's is going to shift well over a wide range. 70's Suntour (VGT I think) or Huret Duopar/EcoDuopar will work and keep your vintage look.

Your best option is to try a 1980s 110BCD triple and you can use it as a compact double. There are lots of these out there (bins full of them at the used bike places around here).

First pick up a shimano HG 6 speed freewheel in the appropriate range desired and a shimano HG chain 6/7/8 speed chain. Just changing the chain and freewheel will blow you away in how smooth your shifting becomes.

Nah, we all just weighed half as much! The triple Campagnolo was available from the early 70s on the touring Paramount and there were TAs.

As far as I know, Zeus cranks are unique, no other chainrings fit.

I believe the 69 Competition came with Simplex deraillers, worth round canning those. The Zeus crank will be virtually impossible to find chainrings for: I'm not sure there were even spares back in the day.

I assume you want to stick with friction shifting? I'd look for some friction Japanese deraillers on ebay, plenty of choices that would work well, long or short cage, depending on what size freewheel you want to run.

I recently picked up a brand new, generic Asian made triple for my wife's bike for around $40. on ebay, and a new, sealed Shimano triple bb from the LBS for $28. Everything should work fine with her 105 indexed bike I think.

With any drive train, getting the chain length right is the key to proper functioning. Should be just short enough to run in the large/large combo, though you wouldn't ride in that gear, right?

Something like these?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sugino-LP-Triple...mZ150283801267

or

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sugino-Super-Max...mZ120296114609

And how would I make it a compact double? Is it possible to dump the middle ring? That would be perfect. The first auction there could be perfect - it's even got the BB and it's in the same county as I am.

I changed out for the Suntour VGT that came with the bike, and it seems to shift better. But the thing is still REAL LOUD, and takes a lot of effort to get it in gear properly.

Ideal would be a <35 gear inch low gear, and then three usable high gears of from 80-100+ gear inches. THat is not possible on what I have. Indexed shifting would be sweet, too. I've been looking aNOS Accushift stuff on eBay and thinking of making that work, but it's tough since it only handles 23T in back.

Make sure the jockey wheels are running in line with the chain and freewheel cog; they easily get out of line over the years. I assume the chain is oiled?

It looks in line, it seems to not have slop, but in some gears it's hard to find the 'sweet spot' and even then, it's not very quiet. I've got another I am going to trade in tonight to see if that helps, but really, I'm thinking I need a NOS derailleur of some sort. That's why that Accushift stuff the guy is selling on eBay looked so good. THis one in particular:

http://cgi.ebay.com/NOS-Suntour-GPX-...mZ280257892643

But of course, I am dreaming, since I could never get a low enough low with that.

Hehe - actually I weigh the same as when I got out of basic training back in the 80's but that's still 195-lbs. My mistake was moving from New Orleans to Colorado. The gravity is much stronger here.

I would leave those as triples although if you wanted you could leave off the inner ring, not the middle one. I think trying to go indexed is going to be a PITA. You'll probably have replace most of your drivetrain to make it work smoothly.

The first set is what I was thinking. I'd get rid of the 44 and put on a 36 or something like that... even a 34 and dump the 28 (which is basically what they are calling a compact double these days).

A new shimano Hyperglide freewheel and chain will make your drivetrain very smooth and quiet. You will get used to the shifting so you can just knock it right in without having to adjust.

I really want to thank you guys for helping me out here - I think I am getting a handle on this. I have digested what you guys recommend with what I need/want/can afford without asking the wife. Here's what I think:

I would like to use new where I can - this drivetrain stuff wears too easy, and I am not qualified to judge what is worn and what is fuxored, especially based on a crappy pic on eBay.

Upgrade the crank. A ~34T compact double is what gives me what I want, and this one is all around pretty cheap @ ~$60 and I have heard of the brand before - it's not Raleigh, but will have to do:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Campagnolo-VELOC...mZ260277179273

Upgrade the cluster with a 28T 6 speed Shimano:

http://cgi.ebay.com/SHIMANO-SIS-HG-2...940336QQihZ008

New would be better, but in any case, something like the above. With the 34T chainring, it will get me to 32 gear inches. ABout as good as I can expect.

Then I would have to replace the front and rear derailleur - again, the Veloce can be had pretty cheap NOS on eBay. I saw the FD for as low as 20$, and the RD looks like it would be <$100.

I would, of course, stick with friction shifting but, as cyclotaine promises, with the freewheel and a pc-58 I have lying around, it should stop splattering into gear like a mallet slices a melted cube of butter.

How does that sound?

My only recommendation would be to try the crankset with a new chain and freewheel first. For the cost of it I would buy the new freewheel at your LBS. (You'll need a freewheel tool andway and if you take in your wheel they'll likely put it on for you).. The one caveat... what is your rear spacing? If it is 120mm the 6 speed freewheel will be two tight. You will need to respace your hub and redish the wheel. This is a chain of worms but worth the effort so you are not stuck with the old freewheel.

The veloce crank is a good buy, you may not even need new derailleurs, the PC58 chain should work good but in my opinion shimano chains are better than sram hands down.

If the derailleurs you have do not work well, first I would try picking up a late 1980s-early 1990s shimano mTB derailleur for the front, anything with the word deore in it, Some exage stuff works well too. And with derailleurs... same era, shimano 105, 600, RSX etc.. are all good, you'll save yourself some money and have nice shifting. One other thing, the chainrings on the veloce cranks are thinner, they will wear faster.

I will check out the LBS - I've got two nearby, but neither ever have anything old school. I end up going to a bike co-op in Santa Cruz for heavy lifting. They have all the tools for use.

Rear spacing is 126. I'm not afraid of cold setting, in any case, as I have done it for 3 speeds for shimano hub upgrades that I later un-upgraded.

I will do as you say - start with the crank and freewheel. But to be honest, I hate geared bikes and am doing all this to see if I can change my mindset. I don't mind spending a few extra bucks and getting NOS Campy, just to give it my best shot. The Campy, in a tortured sort of way, kinda belongs on the bike (at least as much as the Suntour does...) so my vintage predilections won't be too affronted. Assuming the gears change smooth and tight, that is. I think in any case, the front derailer will have to be changed out to handle the compact, won't it?

I already have the chain - LBS sold it to me as a replacement but it won't work with old school 5 speed clusters. Might as well put it to use!

Thanks!

Mark