Mystery metal under Klein paint
10-16-08, 05:00 PM
#1
www.theheadbadge.com
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,508
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked 4,381 Times
in
2,090 Posts
Mystery metal under Klein paint
I recently acquired a beat 'n stripped Klein frameset (thanks The Sprinter!) in trade for some work on his other road machine, and found an odd metal shield of sorts on the outside of the chainstays, and the inside of the lower section of the stays (below the brake bridge to the dropouts only).
First, obligatory photo of the frame:
Mystery metal:
Between this plate and the aluminum frame is a layer of bondo blending the two - a thin layer of bondo also caresses every aluminum joint around the main triangle, even though the actual joints are smooth as silk. Can't figure out the latter.
As for this mysterious metal - it won't respond to sandpaper, and it seems reasonably smooth to the touch as well, despite its appearance. Anyone have an insight into what this is? I have no clue at all.
P.S.: Bad pic, but it has through-the-dropout rear derailer cable routing:
Take care,
-Kurt
First, obligatory photo of the frame:
Mystery metal:
Between this plate and the aluminum frame is a layer of bondo blending the two - a thin layer of bondo also caresses every aluminum joint around the main triangle, even though the actual joints are smooth as silk. Can't figure out the latter.
As for this mysterious metal - it won't respond to sandpaper, and it seems reasonably smooth to the touch as well, despite its appearance. Anyone have an insight into what this is? I have no clue at all.
P.S.: Bad pic, but it has through-the-dropout rear derailer cable routing:
Take care,
-Kurt
__________________
10-16-08, 05:33 PM
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 909
Bikes: Klein
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Kurt,
That looks a lot like the sort of reinforcing mesh you use under Bondo. The thin filler material might be glazing putty which is used to produce a smooth surface over filler. I had a '77 Chevy truck, so I got really familiar with that stuff.
I am surprised that Klein used it under the paint. Do you think that the frame might have re-painted at some time?
That looks a lot like the sort of reinforcing mesh you use under Bondo. The thin filler material might be glazing putty which is used to produce a smooth surface over filler. I had a '77 Chevy truck, so I got really familiar with that stuff.
I am surprised that Klein used it under the paint. Do you think that the frame might have re-painted at some time?
10-16-08, 05:42 PM
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 909
Bikes: Klein
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
10-16-08, 06:14 PM
#5
www.theheadbadge.com
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,508
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked 4,381 Times
in
2,090 Posts
Unless someone knows how to get in touch with Gary Klein.
Steve, the gold-colored substance in the photo is beneath the pink substance. I'm quite sure that the filler is Bondo - has the same texture and consistency.
As to whether the paint is original or not: Underneath a couple coats of spraybomb jobs appears to be a rather thick, quality black paint job which I would assume to be original. No reason why it should not, for this one coat is definitely not from a spray can.
-Kurt
Steve, the gold-colored substance in the photo is beneath the pink substance. I'm quite sure that the filler is Bondo - has the same texture and consistency.
As to whether the paint is original or not: Underneath a couple coats of spraybomb jobs appears to be a rather thick, quality black paint job which I would assume to be original. No reason why it should not, for this one coat is definitely not from a spray can.
-Kurt
__________________
10-16-08, 06:20 PM
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
From what I learned many years ago, NEVER strip a Klein frame!!
Or even sand through the original paint.
What I was told was that there was a "special" treatment that did not cotton well to being disturbed.
I was told to merely scuff the existing paint and primer & paint from there.
I was also told that no matter how careful I was, if I repainted a Klein, the warranty went bye-bye.
That, and there would be "structural" damage to the frame if the treatments were disturbed.
With clients approval, I painted the frame after a light scuff, so I've never actually seen a stripped Klein frame. Thanks for the "insight" Kurt, but I'd be kind of afraid to ride that frame now.
Wall art or Sunday rider, maybe.
Cannondales and other welded aluminum frames, no problems.
Just my two pesos.
Or even sand through the original paint.
What I was told was that there was a "special" treatment that did not cotton well to being disturbed.
I was told to merely scuff the existing paint and primer & paint from there.
I was also told that no matter how careful I was, if I repainted a Klein, the warranty went bye-bye.
That, and there would be "structural" damage to the frame if the treatments were disturbed.
With clients approval, I painted the frame after a light scuff, so I've never actually seen a stripped Klein frame. Thanks for the "insight" Kurt, but I'd be kind of afraid to ride that frame now.
Wall art or Sunday rider, maybe.
Cannondales and other welded aluminum frames, no problems.
Just my two pesos.
10-16-08, 06:36 PM
#7
www.theheadbadge.com
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,508
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked 4,381 Times
in
2,090 Posts
What I was told was that there was a "special" treatment that did not cotton well to being disturbed.
I was told to merely scuff the existing paint and primer & paint from there.
I was also told that no matter how careful I was, if I repainted a Klein, the warranty went bye-bye.
That, and there would be "structural" damage to the frame if the treatments were disturbed.
I was told to merely scuff the existing paint and primer & paint from there.
I was also told that no matter how careful I was, if I repainted a Klein, the warranty went bye-bye.
That, and there would be "structural" damage to the frame if the treatments were disturbed.
I'll put a hypothesis based on nothing else then an educated guess that this unexplained paranoia mighty be related to fears of this section delaminating from the main tubing. Sound plausible?
So far, it is stuck tight to the frame - the only chemical stripper I've used is Ace Hardware's spray-on variety. No problems...yet.
That said, if unless someone can definitely prove what this reasoning is based on (or whether something definite pops up), I'm going to take my chances. Someone has to be the guinea pig for finding out, eh?
-Kurt
__________________
10-16-08, 07:32 PM
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 909
Bikes: Klein
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Unless someone knows how to get in touch with Gary Klein.
Steve, the gold-colored substance in the photo is beneath the pink substance. I'm quite sure that the filler is Bondo - has the same texture and consistency.
As to whether the paint is original or not: Underneath a couple coats of spraybomb jobs appears to be a rather thick, quality black paint job which I would assume to be original. No reason why it should not, for this one coat is definitely not from a spray can.
-Kurt
Steve, the gold-colored substance in the photo is beneath the pink substance. I'm quite sure that the filler is Bondo - has the same texture and consistency.
As to whether the paint is original or not: Underneath a couple coats of spraybomb jobs appears to be a rather thick, quality black paint job which I would assume to be original. No reason why it should not, for this one coat is definitely not from a spray can.
-Kurt
So you're wondering about the gold colored metal? I wonder is that could be spots from welding. Or maybe a side effect of the heat treatment.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the glazing putty I mentioned is essentially thinned polyester filler (Bondo). It has a very fine consistency that can be sanded very smooth. And it is usually pink.
Good luck finding Klein. I understand he used to frequent Waterloo, but probably not lately.
Steve
10-16-08, 07:36 PM
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 909
Bikes: Klein
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
From what I learned many years ago, NEVER strip a Klein frame!!
Or even sand through the original paint.
What I was told was that there was a "special" treatment that did not cotton well to being disturbed.
I was told to merely scuff the existing paint and primer & paint from there.
I was also told that no matter how careful I was, if I repainted a Klein, the warranty went bye-bye.
That, and there would be "structural" damage to the frame if the treatments were disturbed.
With clients approval, I painted the frame after a light scuff, so I've never actually seen a stripped Klein frame. Thanks for the "insight" Kurt, but I'd be kind of afraid to ride that frame now.
Wall art or Sunday rider, maybe.
Cannondales and other welded aluminum frames, no problems.
Just my two pesos.
Or even sand through the original paint.
What I was told was that there was a "special" treatment that did not cotton well to being disturbed.
I was told to merely scuff the existing paint and primer & paint from there.
I was also told that no matter how careful I was, if I repainted a Klein, the warranty went bye-bye.
That, and there would be "structural" damage to the frame if the treatments were disturbed.
With clients approval, I painted the frame after a light scuff, so I've never actually seen a stripped Klein frame. Thanks for the "insight" Kurt, but I'd be kind of afraid to ride that frame now.
Wall art or Sunday rider, maybe.
Cannondales and other welded aluminum frames, no problems.
Just my two pesos.
I do not understand why you could not repaint a Klein. At least the early frames were TIG welded aluminum that was heat treated. I assume the Cannondales were also heat treated.
Steve
10-16-08, 08:06 PM
#10
4.6692016090
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Monterey Peninsula, California
Posts: 1,479
Bikes: yes
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked 81 Times
in
50 Posts
Browsing around Klein's patents suggests possible Boron fiber reinforcements or something similar:
stan
.
Boron fiber reinforcements have been used heretofore on chainstays, seatstays, and fork blades. They serve two important functions. First, the fiber pattern is oriented to stiffen these tubes against lateral deflection. This is most beneficial on the stays and fork blades where lateral stiffness is critical (typically weak points in overall frame side to side stiffness). The second advantage is that boron composites absorb high frequency shock many times better than conventional structural materials. Consequently, it effectively helps the forks and stays dampen road shock for an exceptionally smooth ride and thus, boron reinforced aluminum tubing can be used to advantage in the present invention.
stan
.
10-16-08, 08:06 PM
#11
www.theheadbadge.com
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,508
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked 4,381 Times
in
2,090 Posts
Kurt,
So you're wondering about the gold colored metal? I wonder is that could be spots from welding. Or maybe a side effect of the heat treatment.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the glazing putty I mentioned is essentially thinned polyester filler (Bondo). It has a very fine consistency that can be sanded very smooth. And it is usually pink.
Good luck finding Klein. I understand he used to frequent Waterloo, but probably not lately.
Steve
So you're wondering about the gold colored metal? I wonder is that could be spots from welding. Or maybe a side effect of the heat treatment.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the glazing putty I mentioned is essentially thinned polyester filler (Bondo). It has a very fine consistency that can be sanded very smooth. And it is usually pink.
Good luck finding Klein. I understand he used to frequent Waterloo, but probably not lately.
Steve
At this point, it would likely be a waste of time to contact Klein himself. Might as well just primer this thing, put it together, ride the hell out of it, and find out if all hell breaks loose or not. If not, then I'll break out the Preval sprayer for a one-time use with auto paint and catylist (gloss black - this thing deserves to get the '80s Knight Rider-esque treatment).
Take care,
-Kurt
__________________
10-16-08, 09:02 PM
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
I was refering to BONDED aluminum frames when I mentioned Jasco. NEVER Jasco a bonded frame!
You're THERE now, so might as well.
BTW, I got my info from Klein, back in '94ish. Never made much sense to me, but it's what the factory said, so I had to take that into account when painting someone else's frame.
Good luck & have your estate post the outcome.
BTW, I got my info from Klein, back in '94ish. Never made much sense to me, but it's what the factory said, so I had to take that into account when painting someone else's frame.
Good luck & have your estate post the outcome.
10-16-08, 09:11 PM
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,437
Bikes: NOYB
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Must be there to reinforce the lightweight tubes, and to prevent heel rub from wearing a hole through them or something. They probably considered it a trade secret, so they tried to scare people into not stripping the paint and exposing it.
10-16-08, 09:13 PM
#14
surly old man
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Carlisle, PA
Posts: 3,392
Bikes: IRO Mark V, Karate Monkey half fat, Trek 620 IGH, Cannondale 26/24 MTB, Amp Research B3, and more.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 42 Times
in
18 Posts
I am completely confused now. I have a Klein Pinnacle MTB, so I have some stake in this discussion.
-Kleins are not welded? Huh? Am I just misunderstanding several of you?
-Does anyone have any idea if this weird bondo/borat fiber/magic coating under the paint stuff is only on some models and years? Somehow I prefer to think my Klein is just beautifully shaped aluminum.
jim
-Kleins are not welded? Huh? Am I just misunderstanding several of you?
-Does anyone have any idea if this weird bondo/borat fiber/magic coating under the paint stuff is only on some models and years? Somehow I prefer to think my Klein is just beautifully shaped aluminum.
jim
__________________
Cross Check Nexus7, IRO Mark V, Trek 620 Nexus7, Karate Monkey half fat, IRO Model 19 fixed, Amp Research B3, Surly 1x1 half fat fixed, and more...
--------------------------
SB forever
Cross Check Nexus7, IRO Mark V, Trek 620 Nexus7, Karate Monkey half fat, IRO Model 19 fixed, Amp Research B3, Surly 1x1 half fat fixed, and more...
--------------------------
SB forever
10-16-08, 09:20 PM
#15
www.theheadbadge.com
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,508
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked 4,381 Times
in
2,090 Posts
Browsing around Klein's patents suggests possible Boron fiber reinforcements or something similar.
I'll go with Torchy's theory - used to scare off any widespread exposition of it. Probably also to prevent cheap painters from sandblasting it.
Good luck & have your estate post the outcome.
-Kurt
__________________
10-16-08, 09:23 PM
#16
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,385
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,686 Times
in
2,509 Posts
yes, it's boron. It really would be fairly dangerous to sandblast it. It has nasty properties.
10-16-08, 10:07 PM
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,487
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Liked 162 Times
in
89 Posts
Interesting about the boron fiber reinforcements. I have a good friend with a Klein, and he says the ride quality is more forgiving than you would expect from an all aluminum frame. I wonder if those boron reinforcements (assuming his bike has them) are the reason-
10-16-08, 10:07 PM
#18
juneeaa memba!
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: boogled up in...Idaho!
Posts: 5,632
Bikes: Crap. The box is not big enough...
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
The boron tape was added to the Stage and Super to make them stiffer. They used thinner tubing, so without the boron expect some flex. If you can save it, do. Those were pricey frames, in part because of the tape. And as unterhausen says, don't breathe the stuff...
10-17-08, 12:46 AM
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
More of my twisted, morbid "humor".
If all my "gambling" funds weren't going to my latest speeding ticket, I'd bet that your frame will be just fine.
10-17-08, 12:50 AM
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
