Frame damage and UPS/ebay claim
 

Here's my little sob story:

I recently purchased a Koga Miyata Randonneur from a seller on ebay (using paypal w/ cc). Worried that he didn't have the know-how to package it correctly, I asked him to take it to a bike store for packing. After he dropped the bike off, I payed for shipping over the phone with a credit card.

I finally received the bike a few days ago. On unwrapping it I find that there is a dent about the size of a dime in the top tube:
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q...k/IMG_2537.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q...k/4-Damage.jpg

So now I'm pretty bummed out. The bike was described as having no damage (and the pictures are not detailed enough to be revealing...I know, I know...I've learned my lesson). I've been in touch with the shop that did the packing and they've said that there was nothing wrong with the frame.

I've filed a claim with UPS (the bike was insured for $200 more than I paid for it), as there's a chance this is shipping damage, but from other's experience this looks like a long shot at best.

I've also been in touch with the seller. He's said that there's the possibility that the dent was there, but he's obviously not someone who would notice this kind of thing (though I did explicitly ask before bidding about any dents, dings, etc). He said he would only reimburse if it's a structural/functional problem.

My question is: do I have any real options here for compensation? Ideally I would like to keep the bike. Even if I eventually replace the frame, the components are worth hanging on to. I could file a paypal dispute, but this would entail returning the bike, no?

Anyone have recommendations? Is this a live and learn scenario at best?

If that was the way the bike shop packed it, I would ask them for a refund of the packing charges.

A dent like that wouldnt have occured in shipping, its in to obscure of a position. Based on what your saying about the seller and his description I'd say it was there and your stuck.

No, the top tube was wrapped (albeit not very well), as was the rest of the bike. It wasn't a bad packing job, it also wasn't a great packing job--but I don't think I can fault the shop for under-packaging.

I think my biggest problem here is that I don't know who to trust. The damage could have occurred years ago, it could have happened at the shop while they were disassembling the bike, or it could have happened during shipping. My guess is that UPS has considered these possibilities as well and will decide in their own favor.

Would a paypal dispute be worth the trouble do you think?

I could also attempt to guilt the seller into compensating me, but he seems fairly stubborn... and I'm not very well-versed in the art of the guilt trip.

That dent does look somewhat possible (I note the bike is somewhat lopsided - and foam bubbles are virtually useless for protection) - was there a corresponding mark in the top of the box?

-Kurt

The fact you used a credit card via paypal is to your advantage. First, contact the seller, and tell them you are filing a complaint with paypal. If that fails, which it likely will, go ahead with a chargeback on the CC. They will stick by you, as long as you keep your ducks in a row.

I went thru a similar situation with a seller about a year ago. The bike arrived with a massive downtube dent it did not have in pictures. The seller had under-insured it, despite my paying for full insurance. I made it very clear to the seller the steps I intended to take, after they refused any refund at all. They told me tough luck, I said sort it out with the CC company (and, by extension, paypal). They quickly came to a suitable resolution, refunding most of my purchase price (I wound up keeping the damaged item).

Also, be aware that insurance payments default to the sender of the package, not the recipient, unless the appropriate box is checked. And IME, UPS/Fedex will deny just about any claim on "improper packaging". Start the ball rolling now, but insist on repayment of all monies prior to handing the package over to UPS. You're likely to be stuck with nothing if you don't.

Hard to say. There were some small tears/depressions left by the top of the seat tube/seat post entry. And some indentations in the flap. But nothing too far out of the ordinary.

Thanks for the advice. I've submitted the claim to UPS and have sent pictures to them for review--I have not and will not send the bike itself. I'm also in touch with the bike shop who did the shipping--they've been very cooperative so far.

So, next step, I should send a message to the seller indicating that I'll be submitting a claim to the cc company (not paypal directly)? I've heard paypal's dispute resolution is near-worthless....

I must disagree. That was not an adequate packing job. I see no evidence the frame was stabilized in the box and as Kurt points out, bubbles are not much protection. The shop said there was no damage to the frame when it was packed, so they clearly failed to pack it adequately. You paid them to avoid this very situation.

I agree though that the ding does not look like shipping damage. But the shop has essentially hung itself by supporting the seller's claim of no damage. Trail of evidence. Seller says no damage...shop says no damage when packed...arrives damaged. If there is no evidence of improper handling to the box, i.e. dents in the box, gashes, tire marks (you laugh, but I have seen it), then UPS is going to say inadequate packing.

Good move using a credit card.

Do it in steps. Paypal first, then the CC company. Otherwise, according to rumour, paypal throws a hissy fit.

If you go with the insurance claim, UPS will expect to pick the bike up, IME. Prior to giving you back any cash. Let us know your experience.

I've been thru this dance with sellers twice, and you have to be a jerk and play hardball; they never want to refund unless you close down their options.

Never, ever, buy anything big via ebay/paypal with anything but a credit card. Gives you a third level of protection, after the seller's basic honesty and paypal, neither of which you can count on.

And deny the claim...

+1

no amount of bubble packing is going to protect metal. I was shipped at least 3 chrome bumpers for my truck before I got an undamaged one. The last one was shipped by UPS, the 1st 2 from a freight company. All were wrapped in multi-layer paper!

Hmm, again the problem is who I can trust and who is at fault. Barring the seller agreeing to compensate for prior damage, do I have a clear case against any party? In submitting a cc claim, who should I be seeking remittance from?

Okay, thanks.

I've spoken with UPS Claims and they gave me the option of sending photos rather than having them pick up the bike. Whether this will be the case if they decide to reimburse is unclear.

People suck. He knew damn well that the frame was damaged and photographed it so that it wouldn't show. Make sure that you print out a copy of the ebay listing for your file in case you take the bloodsucking bas%tard to court.
I hate people that try to take advantage of others.
Gary

I have a feeling you're right--that this is a case of misrepresentation.

Here's a copy of the email received from the seller:

"Hi, thanks for the pictures. The size and the shape looks like another round object made that ding, like another bike frame or a tool handle? There doesn't seem to be a scratch. The "edges" are soft and round, so it does not affect the structural integrity. Guessing from the pictures I'd say the ding is only visible under certain light angles on a dust-free surface. I don't think the ding was already there when I auctioned the bike. I had a close look at the auction pictures. There is no indication for that ding while it would even be hard to identify it on the pictures. I understand your frustration. It would always be nice to get used things in perfect condition like new.

"I consider this ding as a cosmetic problem. It might have been occurred at the bike shop. It might have happened during transport. It might have been there while I still owned it and I didn't notice it. In case it was already there: If it's a cosmetic problem, it's covered by selling the item as "used". If it's a structural problem already present during the auction, I'll reimburse you the auction prize plus the shipping costs if the frame begins to develop a crack at this ding during the next 12 months. We both think the damage is most likely cosmetic, but I want to give you peace of mind. In this case, just send the bicycle back and I'll fully reimburse you. If it happened after leaving my house: I sold it "local pick-up" and agreeing on going the extra mile to get it to the buyer does not make me responsible. This is why I prefer to sell "local pick-up": the buyer has immediately the opportunity to inspect the item, take over any risk and pay cash or just walk away. No hassle, no misunderstandings, no frustrations (on both ends). It is a cosmetic problem, but offering you full reimbursement puts all the risk on me and I want you to have peace of mind."

And here's a copy of the email I plan on sending to the seller:

"[seller],

I think we both agree that the dent is most likely cosmetic. Where
we disagree is on the issue of your obligation to disclose significant
cosmetic problems in the description of the item. I would contend that this damage
is significant, and that it significantly affects the value of the bike.

I explicitly asked during bidding whether there were any dents, rust areas,
etc, to which you replied that there were not.

Because of this misrepresentation, I'm going to be filing a claim with paypal and,
potentially, with my credit card company, seeking compensation for the
damage.

[me]"

...
Does this sound fair? I'm not trying to extort money here, I just want a fair deal, and I want whoever is responsible to compensate.

I know a lot of us use ebay, so hopefully my experience here is instructional.

+1 Put in a dispute with Paypal now. I doubt you will get anything out of UPS. Bike was sold to you under false pretenses. It was not as described. Shoot for a total refund.

You can probably dual track the shipping claim since you have already started. I had good luck on such a claim with UPS. They got me a complete refund on an antique clock I bought on ebay.

I would take the sellers offer of a complete and full refund.

+1 Credit card gives you more options, including a chargeback. Given what you paid for the bike, such a defect should have been fully disclosed.

Yes. I would drop the bit about misrepresentation. As you know, being human beings, we're able to be rather... er... dishonest with ourselves. Irregardless of if the dent was there or not. "Misrepresentation" may make the seller think you're saying he is lying, and further get his hackles up. Just say due to the damage, you'll be filing. Stick to the known facts. The bike is damaged; you'll be filing.

Ask him if he'll be paying the return shipping, should you have to return it.

I've found it's often easier to settle for a partial refund than return something as large as a bike. There is the factor of your time to take into account.

I wouldn't be prepared to say that any substantial dent to the main triangle is merely cosmetic. If you are prepared to say, as that draft letter suggests, that he misrepresented the bike then I believe the seller should be the party to make good on fixing the tube or reimbursing all costs associated with the bike.

I would be really annoyed seeing "It would always be nice to get used things in perfect condition like new." because there's a long way to fall from "new" to dented frame.

+1, if he is willing to send a check for $75 or the actual cost of blowing the dent out and making you whole I'd be happy with it. It's unfortunate that repairing a bike generally exceeds its value.

Thanks again. I agree, I'd much rather be compensated for the damage rather than go through the hassle of return.

Is this an option I can seek through paypal or my cc company?

I don't want to weigh in officially, but paypal/cc are probably not going to make partial considerations. If they're paying out, it is because they're going to go after the seller.

Yeah, this is my fear--that I'll return the bike, receive a refund, and end up eating the original shipping fee. I'd much rather just have fair compensation for the damage (a figure I'm not quite sure how to estimate...$100-$150?)

Any thoughts?

I suppose I could say something along the lines of: "Unless we can agree to a fair compensation for the damage, I'll be submitting a claim...etc etc"

Just curious: what frame is that and did you get a great deal on it? It looks like it's been repainted - is that the case?

It is a cosmetic problem, but offering you full reimbursement puts all the risk on me and I want you to have peace of mind."
This statement sounds like he's willing to send you cash back.

Oh and on a side note, I always thought that the shipper had to make the claim - not the receiver.