SA hub shifty trouble (not tension related)
11-18-08, 01:06 PM
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SA hub shifty trouble (not tension related)
Hey guys,
Did some searching, but i guess my problem is not too common.
I recently came across a not-so-old s3c hub that i tossed onto my winter bike. strange troubles, though: with the tension adjusted correctly (i'm pretty sure!) the indicator is too tight to pull into low gear except when there's a bit of pressure on the pedals with on facing forward. In fact, the rod won't even pull into the DS-nut-window-thing except when the pedals are like this!
This doesn't make much sense to me - when the pedals are like this, the chain pulls out okay, it shifts down, and continues on happily. The rest of the time, it simply will not shift down, even if i pull on the indicator by hand - it's REALLY tight. something must be pretty wrong, I'm guessing.
Any thoughts?
edit: using one of those crappy button-and-trigger plastic shifters, but i don't think it's a leverage thing since i have the same trouble when trying to yank on the indicator by hand...
Did some searching, but i guess my problem is not too common.
I recently came across a not-so-old s3c hub that i tossed onto my winter bike. strange troubles, though: with the tension adjusted correctly (i'm pretty sure!) the indicator is too tight to pull into low gear except when there's a bit of pressure on the pedals with on facing forward. In fact, the rod won't even pull into the DS-nut-window-thing except when the pedals are like this!
This doesn't make much sense to me - when the pedals are like this, the chain pulls out okay, it shifts down, and continues on happily. The rest of the time, it simply will not shift down, even if i pull on the indicator by hand - it's REALLY tight. something must be pretty wrong, I'm guessing.
Any thoughts?
edit: using one of those crappy button-and-trigger plastic shifters, but i don't think it's a leverage thing since i have the same trouble when trying to yank on the indicator by hand...
Last edited by vengeful_lemon; 11-18-08 at 01:11 PM.
11-18-08, 01:31 PM
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When downshifting into low, my SA 3spd shifts best when I backpedal a hair's width(or give it a bit of slack). If I am trying to pedal forward it acts just as you described. From what I understand(reading up on such things), this is the way to shift an internal 3spd. I was also having some adjusting problems until I figured out how to fine tune the tension. I have mine not completely pulled out tight when in low, but snuggly pulled out with just a slight looseness. Too tight and it simply will not go into low.
11-18-08, 01:48 PM
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I put a vintage S3C ('76, IIRC) on my daughter's bike, and we are having the same problem.
If I adjust the tension so that it will go into first without a fight, then it occasionally freewheels in second (like it's going into that dead spot between 2nd and 3rd). When adjusted so 2nd & 3rd engage correctly, it is almost impossible to get it clicked into 1st no matter what you do with the peddles. It leaves the cable guitar string taught when it does go in.
I was thinking of putting a spring in line with the indicator chain / cable clamp to reduce the strain. I seem to remember seeing some with a spring when I was a kid.
The coaster brake is also flakey. It works great in 1st & 2nd, but clicks backwards (no shoe engagement) most of the time in 3rd.
If I adjust the tension so that it will go into first without a fight, then it occasionally freewheels in second (like it's going into that dead spot between 2nd and 3rd). When adjusted so 2nd & 3rd engage correctly, it is almost impossible to get it clicked into 1st no matter what you do with the peddles. It leaves the cable guitar string taught when it does go in.
I was thinking of putting a spring in line with the indicator chain / cable clamp to reduce the strain. I seem to remember seeing some with a spring when I was a kid.
The coaster brake is also flakey. It works great in 1st & 2nd, but clicks backwards (no shoe engagement) most of the time in 3rd.
11-18-08, 03:48 PM
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Couple of possibilities on the OP...is the pulley in the correct place? Do you have the OEM cable with the adjuster made on to the cable or do you have the universal type?
I have had issues with all of the SA coaster brake hubs at one time or another, enough that I prefer not to use them if at all possible.
Aaron
I have had issues with all of the SA coaster brake hubs at one time or another, enough that I prefer not to use them if at all possible.
Aaron
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11-18-08, 04:02 PM
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I had that same problem too when I first got my Raleigh. Once I got and kept the hub well lubed(mine leaks like a sinking oil tanker-must replace seals someday) and learned to fine tune it I had no further problems. When I say fine tune, I mean really fine. Just the slightest nudge will take the whole shifting system out of adjustment...or into adjustment...when turning the adjuster. As these systems wear a bit they get more tempermental to adjust. I spent all afternoon with mine when I first got it and now, nearly 10 years later, I can do it in a second. It was very disheartening to suddenly slip into neutral 16 miles from home down the biking trail.
I think more than anything it takes patience to get these hubs tuned right.
It sounds like something in the coaster hub may be worn which may also account for the difficulty in adjusting the shift linkage.
Does yours take grease or oil? I am unsure when they switched over. Mine is a 1970 and is oil lubed.
Sheldon Brown wrote a guide for us 3spd users...it is what got me on the right track:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/english-3.html
I think more than anything it takes patience to get these hubs tuned right.
It sounds like something in the coaster hub may be worn which may also account for the difficulty in adjusting the shift linkage.
Does yours take grease or oil? I am unsure when they switched over. Mine is a 1970 and is oil lubed.
Sheldon Brown wrote a guide for us 3spd users...it is what got me on the right track:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/english-3.html
11-18-08, 04:03 PM
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This is what the link will take you too(along with lots of other info):
3-speed cable adjustment
here is a little chain coming out of the right end of the rear axle, to which the end of the control cable attaches. This chain (called an "indicator spindle" by cognoscenti) screws into an internal part of the hub by rather delicate threads. When you install an indicator spindle, screw it in finger tight, then back it off 1/2 turn. It should not be bottomed out on its internal threads, so that it can swing freely to face the cable. This adjustment must be checked every time the cable is re-attached.
The fine adjustment of the cable tension is accomplished by how far the end fitting of the cable screws onto the end of the indicator spindle chain. The official manuals tell you to adjust it by visual examination of the end of the indicator spindle shaft, but this doesn't always work, especially if the indicator spindle is not original equipment. For best results, adjust the cable by tension. When the trigger is in high gear position, the cable should be totally slack. Shift down to middle gear, while watching the indicator chain-it should clearly move as you make the shift. Then shift to low gear; again, you should see more chain coming out of the end of the axle. Sometimes the internal parts line up in such a way as to prevent downshifting. If you have trouble getting the hub to downshift, turn the pedals slightly forwards. Once you are sure you are in low gear, take hold of the indicator spindle chain and try to pull more of it out of the axle. If the adjustment is correct, you should be able to get just a tiny bit more movement from the chain. If it is completely taut, the cable is too tight. Make sure to tighten the knurled locknut on the indicator spindle so that the adjustment will stay as you have set it.
Double check the adjustment in all gears. In low gear, you should be able to see that the sprocket moves faster than the wheel, and the hub should not make a ticking sound while being pedaled forward. In middle gear, the sprocket should move at the same speed as the wheel, and you may hear a slow ticking as you pedal. In high gear, the wheel should turn faster than the sprocket. The same slow ticking may be audible in high gear.
If you hold the trigger halfway between middle and high gear, the hub should disengage so that you can spin the pedals forward without going anywhere. If it freewheels forward in high gear, the cable is to tight or has too much friction to release properly. If it freewheels forward in middle gear, the cable is too loose.
3-speed cable adjustment
here is a little chain coming out of the right end of the rear axle, to which the end of the control cable attaches. This chain (called an "indicator spindle" by cognoscenti) screws into an internal part of the hub by rather delicate threads. When you install an indicator spindle, screw it in finger tight, then back it off 1/2 turn. It should not be bottomed out on its internal threads, so that it can swing freely to face the cable. This adjustment must be checked every time the cable is re-attached. The fine adjustment of the cable tension is accomplished by how far the end fitting of the cable screws onto the end of the indicator spindle chain. The official manuals tell you to adjust it by visual examination of the end of the indicator spindle shaft, but this doesn't always work, especially if the indicator spindle is not original equipment. For best results, adjust the cable by tension. When the trigger is in high gear position, the cable should be totally slack. Shift down to middle gear, while watching the indicator chain-it should clearly move as you make the shift. Then shift to low gear; again, you should see more chain coming out of the end of the axle. Sometimes the internal parts line up in such a way as to prevent downshifting. If you have trouble getting the hub to downshift, turn the pedals slightly forwards. Once you are sure you are in low gear, take hold of the indicator spindle chain and try to pull more of it out of the axle. If the adjustment is correct, you should be able to get just a tiny bit more movement from the chain. If it is completely taut, the cable is too tight. Make sure to tighten the knurled locknut on the indicator spindle so that the adjustment will stay as you have set it.
Double check the adjustment in all gears. In low gear, you should be able to see that the sprocket moves faster than the wheel, and the hub should not make a ticking sound while being pedaled forward. In middle gear, the sprocket should move at the same speed as the wheel, and you may hear a slow ticking as you pedal. In high gear, the wheel should turn faster than the sprocket. The same slow ticking may be audible in high gear.
If you hold the trigger halfway between middle and high gear, the hub should disengage so that you can spin the pedals forward without going anywhere. If it freewheels forward in high gear, the cable is to tight or has too much friction to release properly. If it freewheels forward in middle gear, the cable is too loose.
Last edited by SouthernGothic; 11-18-08 at 04:07 PM.
11-18-08, 06:18 PM
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11-18-08, 08:00 PM
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[QUOTE=SouthernGothic;7875007]I had that same problem too when I first got my Raleigh. Once I got and kept the hub well lubed(mine leaks like a sinking oil tanker-must replace seals someday) and learned to fine tune it I had no further problems.
There are no seals. It is normal for the oil to leak out. Just give it five drops or so once a month, and then wipe it off the spokes and rims after it runs out. It helps to put a rag over the rim, under the hub, to keep the oil off the braking surface, for the first few days after oiling it.
There are no seals. It is normal for the oil to leak out. Just give it five drops or so once a month, and then wipe it off the spokes and rims after it runs out. It helps to put a rag over the rim, under the hub, to keep the oil off the braking surface, for the first few days after oiling it.
11-18-08, 08:08 PM
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By "old" here, we mean that it was a Sturmey Archer made in jolly old England at/near the Raleigh factory works. "New" would be after the factory was shut down in the late '90's and the rights were purchased by SunRace and production of a modified hub moved to Taiwan.
The S3C would fall into the 'Old' category (made up until around 1990) - a successor to the infamous TCW. The S3C uses oil, not grease.
I suspect a teardown to inspect the gizzards is in order. I broke down an AW that I was going to use on my girls bike (it didn't pass my basic bench test) and found rusted pawls. The S3C was quite dry when I got it, and adding 30w oil did help some. After a while, I pumped in some WD-40 (basically kerosene) to try and loosen it up more, but it didn't help. I was thinking about adding Kroil as well, but maybe it's too much chemistry! Physical inspection time.
The S3C would fall into the 'Old' category (made up until around 1990) - a successor to the infamous TCW. The S3C uses oil, not grease.
I suspect a teardown to inspect the gizzards is in order. I broke down an AW that I was going to use on my girls bike (it didn't pass my basic bench test) and found rusted pawls. The S3C was quite dry when I got it, and adding 30w oil did help some. After a while, I pumped in some WD-40 (basically kerosene) to try and loosen it up more, but it didn't help. I was thinking about adding Kroil as well, but maybe it's too much chemistry! Physical inspection time.
11-18-08, 08:54 PM
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FWIW, the production of hubs with the AW-NIG parts and mechanism began in 1984, in jolly old England.
tcs
tcs
11-18-08, 09:54 PM
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if the indicator spindle (the adjuster rod) is having difficulty being pulled out unless you are putting slight pressure on the pedals, then something is off. either something is gummed up from years of non-use, or there is a mechanical problem like a broken pawl spring that is getting in the way.
11-19-08, 03:26 AM
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[QUOTE=waldowales;7876439]
Yup, been carrying my oil rag with me in my saddlebag along with my oil can. The amount I ride it takes more than a few drops a month. I am not sure what I would do with a bike that was clean and not covered in oil film...
I had that same problem too when I first got my Raleigh. Once I got and kept the hub well lubed(mine leaks like a sinking oil tanker-must replace seals someday) and learned to fine tune it I had no further problems.
There are no seals. It is normal for the oil to leak out. Just give it five drops or so once a month, and then wipe it off the spokes and rims after it runs out. It helps to put a rag over the rim, under the hub, to keep the oil off the braking surface, for the first few days after oiling it.
There are no seals. It is normal for the oil to leak out. Just give it five drops or so once a month, and then wipe it off the spokes and rims after it runs out. It helps to put a rag over the rim, under the hub, to keep the oil off the braking surface, for the first few days after oiling it.
11-19-08, 07:27 AM
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tcs, I stand corrected! Now I know what NIG stands for.
11-19-08, 07:39 AM
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OK, so now that I have learned about the NIG variant, maybe someone can help my feeble memory on the subject of an in-line spring just above the indicator chain. I'm sure that I remember seeing them.
The more I think about it, the more it makes some sense. If the planetary gearset is not aligned or won't simply pull into alignment when you downshift, you will meet extreme resistance and not be able to seat the shifter into the detent. Why not simply pull on a spring when you shift, and then let the spring tension pull on the chain. Then at the next 'opportunity', say as you move the pedals, the hub will downshift. It will make adjusting a bit more tricky - a fairly stiff spring and you need to set the zero stretch point as the static position.
The more I think about it, the more it makes some sense. If the planetary gearset is not aligned or won't simply pull into alignment when you downshift, you will meet extreme resistance and not be able to seat the shifter into the detent. Why not simply pull on a spring when you shift, and then let the spring tension pull on the chain. Then at the next 'opportunity', say as you move the pedals, the hub will downshift. It will make adjusting a bit more tricky - a fairly stiff spring and you need to set the zero stretch point as the static position.
11-19-08, 02:38 PM
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thanks for all the info, everyone. It's very cool to see so many responses. And, tcs, thanks for the links to the manuals - I've never seen those.
An update for the Original Post that I hope will answer the questions you guys kindly asked:
It was made in England (september 1987), so not too old, but not too new. Oiler, not grease.
I believe the issue is a gunk/lubrication one. After riding it gently for a few days and oiling (Shell SAE 30ND) it much more than I would normally oil a hub, the problem is getting better all the time. I haven't flushed with WD-40 or kerosene, or solvent, since the problem seems much better.
I've kept the adjustment so that it was dialed in properly for shifting when the pedals were in the seemingly necessary "forward" position, and ridden it adjusted in that way. After the oil and some riding, more oil, and more oil, it shifts very well, and only occasionally does not want to shift. When this happens now, all it needs is a little backpressure on the pedals.
Some very, dirty oil came out at first. Now it's dripping clean.
I've concluded that the issue was years of use probably without oiling or with too little, and then a slow retirement sitting in the weather (rusted dumpster-bike).
I know about correct indicator adjustment, and the cable and pulley are original, but routed a bit differently than original, since it was moved to a "modern" bike. It's certainly not a cabling issue - my routing is not ideal, but it doesn't have too much friction.
I have an off-topic question, though. The Internet seems to think that coaster brakes are suicidal for hard riding. I really really love the coaster so far, but since this thing now lives on my winter bike, I don't like using the front brake in the slush. Any tips on knowing when the coaster might want to fail?
thanks, all!
An update for the Original Post that I hope will answer the questions you guys kindly asked:
It was made in England (september 1987), so not too old, but not too new. Oiler, not grease.
I believe the issue is a gunk/lubrication one. After riding it gently for a few days and oiling (Shell SAE 30ND) it much more than I would normally oil a hub, the problem is getting better all the time. I haven't flushed with WD-40 or kerosene, or solvent, since the problem seems much better.
I've kept the adjustment so that it was dialed in properly for shifting when the pedals were in the seemingly necessary "forward" position, and ridden it adjusted in that way. After the oil and some riding, more oil, and more oil, it shifts very well, and only occasionally does not want to shift. When this happens now, all it needs is a little backpressure on the pedals.
Some very, dirty oil came out at first. Now it's dripping clean.
I've concluded that the issue was years of use probably without oiling or with too little, and then a slow retirement sitting in the weather (rusted dumpster-bike).
I know about correct indicator adjustment, and the cable and pulley are original, but routed a bit differently than original, since it was moved to a "modern" bike. It's certainly not a cabling issue - my routing is not ideal, but it doesn't have too much friction.
I have an off-topic question, though. The Internet seems to think that coaster brakes are suicidal for hard riding. I really really love the coaster so far, but since this thing now lives on my winter bike, I don't like using the front brake in the slush. Any tips on knowing when the coaster might want to fail?
thanks, all!
11-19-08, 03:34 PM
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When it gets grabby and wants to pull the wheel forward in the dropout. Basically when it loses modulation because the inerds are scored and messed up. Kinda how a car gets with REALLY bad brakes. Grabby.
11-19-08, 03:54 PM
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[QUOTE=waldowales;7876439]
I read somewhere (probably on this forum) that you're supposed to put soap-based auto grease in the dust cap channels (and only there) to help seal the the oil in the hub. I just got a hub that leaks like there's no tomorrow, and I'll try that and see if it works.
I had that same problem too when I first got my Raleigh. Once I got and kept the hub well lubed(mine leaks like a sinking oil tanker-must replace seals someday) and learned to fine tune it I had no further problems.
There are no seals. It is normal for the oil to leak out. Just give it five drops or so once a month, and then wipe it off the spokes and rims after it runs out. It helps to put a rag over the rim, under the hub, to keep the oil off the braking surface, for the first few days after oiling it.
There are no seals. It is normal for the oil to leak out. Just give it five drops or so once a month, and then wipe it off the spokes and rims after it runs out. It helps to put a rag over the rim, under the hub, to keep the oil off the braking surface, for the first few days after oiling it.
I read somewhere (probably on this forum) that you're supposed to put soap-based auto grease in the dust cap channels (and only there) to help seal the the oil in the hub. I just got a hub that leaks like there's no tomorrow, and I'll try that and see if it works.
11-19-08, 05:54 PM
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[QUOTE=yohannrjm;7881892]
Yep
that is the way it supposed to work. The old greases were soap based and would dry out over time, but by applying oil to the backside of them via the hub you extended the life of them and kept the hub well lubricated. I have seen plenty of cases of people adding an oil port to the new hubs with excellent results, they run quieter and probably will last longer.
Aaron
that is the way it supposed to work. The old greases were soap based and would dry out over time, but by applying oil to the backside of them via the hub you extended the life of them and kept the hub well lubricated. I have seen plenty of cases of people adding an oil port to the new hubs with excellent results, they run quieter and probably will last longer.Aaron
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Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
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"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
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Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
11-20-08, 10:52 AM
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Kpug: good info, and encouraging, too, because the brake has very good modulation, so I guess I'll live through the winter, with a little luck
Thanks for all the good info, everyone.
Thanks for all the good info, everyone.
11-20-08, 11:02 AM
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When I did my daughter's bike, I added a rim handbrake to the rear even though I selected a coasterbrake gear hub. Redundency is a good thing, and it prepares her for the move to all handbrakes. In your case it could extend the life of the S3C which probably has smaller shoes than a single speed coaster and could easily be overwhelmed when stopping an adult rider going downhill.
So, anybody remember seeing a spring in line on the shifter cable?
So, anybody remember seeing a spring in line on the shifter cable?
11-20-08, 05:11 PM
#22
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When I did my daughter's bike, I added a rim handbrake to the rear even though I selected a coasterbrake gear hub. Redundency is a good thing, and it prepares her for the move to all handbrakes. In your case it could extend the life of the S3C which probably has smaller shoes than a single speed coaster and could easily be overwhelmed when stopping an adult rider going downhill.
So, anybody remember seeing a spring in line on the shifter cable?
So, anybody remember seeing a spring in line on the shifter cable?
Aaron
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Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
11-20-08, 10:06 PM
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The OEM cable runs open over a pulley, without a casing. There is no spring required, as the spring in the hub is strong enough to pull the cable when the shifter releases it on an up shift. The usual after market replacement has a housing full length. The spring is intended to pull the cable back against the increased friction of the long housing.
11-21-08, 04:23 AM
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The OEM cable runs open over a pulley, without a casing. There is no spring required, as the spring in the hub is strong enough to pull the cable when the shifter releases it on an up shift. The usual after market replacement has a housing full length. The spring is intended to pull the cable back against the increased friction of the long housing.
Aaron
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Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
11-22-08, 12:05 PM
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Never seen a spring. I've always seen partial housing + pulley, but I haven't seen very many hubs total... I hear some people use springs to help them shift an SA with a friction shifter?
I hope I'm not exceeding the weight it was designed for too much - it came from an "adult" bike with 26" wheels. This bike does get loaded with groceries pretty often, though.
A rear brake is a good thought, and I'd run one, but I haven't got a non-recessed brake bolt in my parts bin, and this bike has an old-style brake bridge. Also, the reason I use a CB on this bike is because the conditions are too sloppy for a rim brake to do much in the winter.
thanks again for all the help, guys.
I hope I'm not exceeding the weight it was designed for too much - it came from an "adult" bike with 26" wheels. This bike does get loaded with groceries pretty often, though.
A rear brake is a good thought, and I'd run one, but I haven't got a non-recessed brake bolt in my parts bin, and this bike has an old-style brake bridge. Also, the reason I use a CB on this bike is because the conditions are too sloppy for a rim brake to do much in the winter.
thanks again for all the help, guys.
Last edited by vengeful_lemon; 11-23-08 at 10:27 PM.
