Well constructed frames vs sloppy messes
 

Hanging around C&V I see alot of talk about frame craftsman ship, things like lug filing, brazing, paint etc. What I want to know is what does a great frame look like, and what does a poor frame look like? Take for example this Confente frame that just sold:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0%3D%26fvi%3D1

I have read comments in a previous post about there being some flaws in the build quality, what are they? What does a sloppy bike boom Raleigh look like, what does a good bike boom Raleigh look like? I am not asking this to be silly, I am genuinly interested in what I am asking. Are frames by Masi, Confente Mercx, Cinelli and the like of superior build compared to a Schwinn Paramount or Raleigh Professional? Or is it purely the mojo of a frame handbuilt in a small shop by a known master? Pictures help.

Thanks!

-Matt

This page has a pretty nice lineup in the way of lug filing to compare:
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk...ts/nervex.html

Keep in mind that the Nervex Pro lugset was thick and usually finished like garbage in its raw state. Compare the 1955 Gillott with the '62 Viking. Hardly any smoothing on the Viking, and there seems to be a big defect at the back of the lug too (not typical, ignore it). The Gillott has had the lug filed down nicely - not too much, but well done nevertheless. The 1986 Mercian takes the cake over the Gillott however - notice how it has not only been filed to a beautiful, even thickness, the lower ridge has been filed smooth with the rest of the lug. Same for the '04 King of Mercia.

Consistency in braze around the joints is another thing - get a close look at the downtube lug on the Confente you've linked. Notice how the edge is sharp until it comes to the tip, where the transition between the lug and the tube becomes less blocky. Excess brass or silver is the problem.

Soon as I can find the photos, I'll post some random nasty lugwork from my '61 Paramount.

-Kurt

Excellent Kurt, Thank you

Here we go:

Rough, unfinished lugs, a'la PX-10:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/Headlugs_paramount.jpg

Utterly sloppy dropout/chainstay transition:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/Dropout_paramount.jpg

EDIT: Realized I happened to have this photo that I previously cropped for a Velobase headset photo. I have to say one thing in praise, however; despite the rough lugs, the silver solder edge around them is excellent in its consistency - even if somewhat thick.

http://www.jaysmarine.com/paramount_headlug.jpg

-Kurt

That reminded me of something entirely different - gaps (in an extreme example):

http://www.jaysmarine.com/70paramount_headlug.jpg

There's brass in it, all right, but this one little spot is inexcusably empty by two/three millimeters in depth or so. I don't worry about it, because the gap is closed, and it isn't nearly as deep as the flash picture makes it look.

Funny thing though - while the '70 all-chrome Paramount seems to be lax with the silver solder, it is the antithesis of the '61 when it comes down to lug thinning:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/70_paramount_3.jpg

Its still uneven though - the joint between the downtube is far thinner then most of what curves around the headtube (and, of course, the other side of the head lug espouses "Friday Job").

-Kurt

Thanks Kurt (and Matt)! This is very informative to those of us with limited frame-building knowledge.

You never skip an opportunity to show off that one. :D You get my PM Kurt? I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.:thumb:

Also so happens to be one of my best pictures :D

Do you mean the SR crankset PM?

P.S.: Alyeska has been boxed. Going to take it to the PO to see if I have to lighten it up, or chop the box down in some manner or another (online calculator is giving me a quote of $90 :eek:). Could you PM me your shipping address again?

-Kurt

I see what your saying, I looked at my raleigh pro in between posts and I don't think there is one joint that was expertly done. I think it takes the cake, for sloppiness that is.

Messy seat cluster:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3111/...e8fd853c_o.jpg

"it's on the bottom, no one will see it"
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3172/...25b76bd7_o.jpg

Bad chain stay work:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3038/...a516ae95_o.jpg

Skimpy on the silver here:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3123/...c2033d80_o.jpg

Bottom of downtube lug:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3180/...09423a63_o.jpg

There we go. Precisely why I lost my taste for the higher-end Nottingham Raleighs - quality deferring to mass production. Also notice that the seat stay caps have not been filed flush with the seat stay tubing.

Still a nice frame, no doubt about it, and I'll definitely wager that the excess brass in the joints would probably outlast my Paramount's headlug under continued stress.

-Kurt

Yeah, now looking back at the Confente frame there is quite a large difference! I was looking over the lugs on my cheapo miyata and although they have issues too, are cleaner than the work done on the pro.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3173/...e37e2c79_o.jpg

Please do not confuse the sloppiness (or lack of) of the frames brazing with the quality of the
build or the ride of a frame.
Many of the old bikes we covet were sloppy indeed.
Remember that first and foremost a racing frame, be it built by Faliero, Sante, Ernesto or Ugo (among others) was a tool for the racer, built to ride well and win races, period.
Whether a frame had it's lugs thinned, immaculately filed or not has nothing to do with the actual
ride qualities.
The American and UK builders were the ones that pushed thinned lugs and impeccable filing to the
forefront of the builders art.

marty

Also take note - those Miyata head "lugs" are one piece formed with the headtube - they are not brazed, silver soldered or filed in that area. Can't recall if this was some form of cast piece or another.

Ooooh - ride qualities. Now there is a tantalizing thread in itself. What that '61 doesn't have going for it in terms of lug thinning is made up for in its ride, that is for sure.

-Kurt

My 1980 Peugeot PKN-10 had the worst workmanship I have seen on any supposedly mid-to-high-end frameset. There were visible seams on the backs of the fork blades and visible brazing gaps at the rear dropouts. My Bianchi from the same period looks far better, as do my two Capos from 20 years earlier, one of which shows a bit of splatter under the seat cluster lug.

That explains alot, faux lugs.


Between this and the Masi/Confente thread this has been a pretty interesting day to me.

Marty, I hear what you are saying. These were purpose built tools, and while beautiful, were probably considered disposable. I guess looking at all the holes in a Merckx bike proves that function was king right?

Yep. Same thing on the Miyata 600GT:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/Headlugs_miyata.jpg


While we're on the topic of headlugs, here are some others that I photographed about a year ago for a thread of a similar nature (IIRC, the forum kicked the bucket for a few hours afterwards for reasons unrelated to the thread, but often attributed to an overdose of lugwork :lol:):

'87 Basso/D'Arienzo:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/Headlugs_basso87.jpg

'84 Raleigh Team Pro (English - W serial):
http://www.jaysmarine.com/Headlugs_84pro.jpg

'86 Raleigh Grand Prix (Taiwan):
http://www.jaysmarine.com/Headlugs_86gp.jpg

Legnano Gran Premio:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/Headlugs_legnano.jpg

Peugeot PSV-10:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/Headlugs_pegueotPSV10.jpg

-Kurt

Paint can cover a multitude of sins (silver voids in lug brazing can be filled with plastic filler before painting, excess silver on tubes, etc.). A chrome plated frame, though, really shows the slightest imperfections. As Kurt says, quality lugwork involves tapering the thickness of the lugs near the ends to prevent stress risers due to hard points in the lug-to-tube transition. Most of the chrome plated Paramounts during the bike boom were brazed by Don Mainland in Racine, WI, because his brazing was so clean and Schwinn was very sensitive to any criticism of the Paramount build quality.

Unpainted polished stainless steel also shows any imperfections, so extra care is taken to the clean up brazed lugs on 953 and CXr frames.

Waterford 953 stainless RS-22:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7...07014/Lugs.jpg

Dave Wages custom carved lugs on 953 frame. While the fancy flames may not be your cup of tea, the high quality of the work is undeniable:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7...e/HeadTube.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7...arDropouts.jpg

My first Bianchi, a bottom-of-the-line model which retailed for $55 in 1962, was made the same way.

some very nice examples Stan, thank you. I would be interested in a thread about ride quality, another topic that I know absolutly nothing about.

That frame needs to see a varicose vein doctor. ;)

-Kurt

For lower end bikes, here is a comparison between a nice Trek 950 bottom bracket weld and a sloppy Schwinn Criss Cross bottom bracket weld. The Trek is a 1994, the Schwinn is a 1992, so it is not a difference in era. The Trek weld is smooth and uniform, the Schwinn is anything but... FWIW, the Trek was US made, the Schwinn Taiwan? (I am not sure).


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3080/...24b2b826_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3285/...8e1afde4_o.jpg

I overhauled an 81 Raleigh Super Grand Prix last summer for a friend. The workmanship on that bike was about the worst I have ever seen. I thought I still had pictures of it but can't find them on my computer here at work.

Nice Klein

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...t/DSC01299.jpg

I think the obsession with clean lug shorelines was pretty much invented in the U.S. in the '70s. And it didn't start catching on until later. The Raleigh shown above is fairly clean if you consider they didn't touch it with a file after it was brazed. And it really doesn't affect the utility of the frame at all. The way the seatstay caps are done is not all that easy to do considering you can't clean it up afterwards. A belt sander covers up a lot of sins on caps like that, Raleigh couldn't use a belt sander on theirs.

My memory of the Treks I brazed up was that the lugs went out from the factory in a fairly clean state, although much of the work finishing the dropouts was very poorly done. That still causes me heartburn. Lugs can be brazed cleanly leaving fairly little cleanup, it's difficult to do that with dropouts the way Trek did them. Most of the cleanup was done with Dynabrade hand-held belt sanders, which are marvelous devices -- in the right hands.