Frames: Record v. Grand Prix
 

As far as the frame is concerned is there anything different between the two? I'm trying to move up the food chain but never seem to find right size frame until this Grand Prix came along. On a trade, I'm getting a 77 Grand Prix frame/fork. On Sheldon's site it says the Record frame is made of 20/30 high-carbon steel. Are the lugs any different or did the models differ in components but with same frame?

I've sat back and looked for a year now and this is the best that has come my way although plenty of stuff in the 60-64cm range. Just wondering if I'm moving up the food chain or not really.
KEN

Same steel, some slightly different details like the wrap around seatstays on the Grand Prix. From having both, in a given year the GP's workmanship might be slightly better, depending on the plant that made it. But these were workmanlike machines to begin with.

W,G,or R coded Grand Prix's would likely have a slightly higher quality level. But I have an "N" Nottingham made GP and it's a perfectly serviceable, comfortable ride.

The Grand Prix was ten or twenty bucks more expensive than the Record, the main difference that I can remember was that the GP had quick release wheels, and maybe one or two other parts were a little higher quality, maybe Weinmann brakes instead of Altenburgers or something like that; but the frames were basically of the same quality except for some details as redneckwes mentioned. It is strange, now that I think about it, that such similar bikes had different frames; I wouldn't really think of the Grand Prix frame as a higher quality one than the Record.

So to answer your question, the Grand Prix was higher up the food chain thirty years ago; but only slightly so. Which one is more desirable today would come down to condition. So if you're only looking at a frame & fork, I would consider it an upgrade only if you see some obvious reason to prefer one over the other; better paint, better color, better condition, more attractive lugs, etc.

For a noticeably better frame on a Raleigh of that period you have to move up to the Super Course or higher still something with a "531" or at least a "Carlton" decal on the seat tube.

Thanks REDNECK and RHM. Now with frame in hand and swapping it for a pair of handlebars, I feel it was worthy trade. As far as heading up the food chain, I think you're right that I might have only cut a few places in line towards the front. But fwd progress is fwd progress. I'll keep my eyes out for a Super Course (in 54 or 56).

BTW. I want to use the bike for some touring and randoneurring. Would the Super Course be a good option?

A Super Course will have both a 531 and Carlton decal, they were made in the Carlton facility in Worksop.

Most SC's have a pretty tight geometry, especially the last generation of English built models. They have fairly short wheelbases, and short chainstays. Not usually the hallmarks of a Rando or touring machine. A 60's or 70's Dawes Galaxy is generally considered the standard english touring machine, at least in production bikes.

Ken, as I was reading this thread, I was thinking you needed to upgrade to a Super Course! Or get more high-zoot and get your hands on an early 70s Competition or Gran Sport (both with full 531 frames). I think an early Super Course would be fine for touring as the chainstays were fairly long, and you can retrofit them to 700c wheels if you choose by using longer reach brakes. Later in the 70s, the geometry became much more race-like.

Neal

Yeah Neal you nailed it! I AM looking for a Super Course (or if MOTOBECANE, then the Grand Touring) but what I find always seems to come up too large framesize. As I reread RHM's post, it seemed there was very little difference btwn the 2. But the more I studied the frame last night and compared it to my Record, there are noticeable differences mostly because I have the two frames side-by-side. To anyone else, I agree there isn't much folks would pick up on unless they have studied both bikes. All in all, I'm happy with the acquisition and will begin the transfer of components from Record to the Grand Prix. I'm planning another overnight trip in late Feb. so that will give me enough time.

Bottom line, this will do for now.

Snag this one, Ken, though you'll have to find a BF member in Wisconsin to ship it to you:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=170295681097

Neal

I've got an email in to that seller asking about the top tube length, haven't heard back yet. It's about an hour or so south of me, but there's a guy in the office here who drives up from Racine daily so getting it in hand should be doable. Let me know if I can help.

I'm not bidding on it, mostly just pinged him in case nobody bit oh him opening bid price.

Frame Size
 

TREEBOUND, I'll bet it's either a 54 or 56cm just eyeballing the headtube.
KEN

Super Courses do have short wheel bases. I just got a 73 Super Course and I can't run a front fender on it because my big feet hit it. I had the same fender on my Motobecane Grand Record (touring bike) and my feet never hit it. I'd look for a Grand Touring if I were you.

I much prefer the late '60s Competitions.

Valuable Feedback
 

MPARKER,

This is one of the reasons I love this site. Where else are you going to get this kind of valuable feedback!?
KEN

Hey, I'd love one of those; unfortunately, they show up fairly rarely (as opposed to late 70s Competitions, which show up regularly). Seems like there are a literal ton of Super Courses out there showing up regularly for auction or sale.

Neal

There's a frame from the 80s on ebay - he wants $135 (buy it now) which ain't too bad. But it's an 80s frame, and I'd prefer something from 60s-70s.

http://cgi.ebay.com/53-cm-20-3-4-Mot...3%3A1|294%3A50

This guesstimation about wheelbase got me out measuring. Here are some Raleigh comparisons:

1971 Super Course: wheelbase = 41", chainstay = 18"
1971 International: wheelbase = 42", chainstay = 18"
1975 Super Course MkII: wheelbase = 41", chainstay = 17.5"
1971 Competition: wheelbase = 40.15" (no chainstay measurement as I don't own this one any longer)
1978 Competition GS: wheelbase = 39.5", chainstay = 16.5"

Neal

Ken, You can move up with a Super Course or you can move up with a newer Raleigh, like a mid to late 80's Marathon or Record. They have Chromoly main tubes and alloy rims and a much nicer ride than the 70's Raleighs. Granted they're not as sexy as a Super Course, but it is another alternative.

I was going to suggest an international for randonneuring. WHat does everyone else say?

This baby is a little high priced:
http://www.usedvictoria.com/classified-ad/8059465

I would offer to pick it up for you but the cost of shipping from Canada would probably make it unreasonable.

If you are looking for a MB Grand Touring from the 70's, get a 76' or later. 76 is the year the GT's switched from 1020 tubing (similar to what was on the Grand Prix) to Vitus double butted tubing & dropped about 2 pounds of weight. Most mid 70's & up MB had Swiss threaded BB's as well.

Well I'm happy to live with the Grand Prix for now. I see it as paying dues before "earning" something better. I did however notice, as I was piecing things together that this has an upgraded squared end BB spindle installed. I assume the outer cups are original, but what does this mean as far as crank arm setup? Will I need to go to cotterless cranks and if so, what sort of measurements do I need to take to ensure proper fit?

Here's a pic for quick reference...

Other option is I could switch back to cottered crank BB since I have one from another frame that is also raleigh of similar vintage.
KEN

I can hear all of my 1970s Raleighs sobbing in the basement.:cry:

Neal

If you want to keep the "upgraded" cotterless BB, you will want to make sure that it gives you the correct chain line. I'm most familiar with the early to mid '70s Gran Prix. According to my notes, I've measured the chainline on a GranPrix at 44mm.

The Gran Prix BTW has a much better front fork than the Record. I haven't seen a Record yet that doesn't have a bent fork. They are quite weak and prone to bending.

I believe the Record and the GP had the same 26 tpi cup and spindle cottered crankset.

KRANZ, your comment above concurs with Sheldon Brown's site stating 26tpi threads. How would I measure the width? I've seen measurements for ex. 70mm or 74mm and wondering how to take that msrmt. Is that measuring the width of BB of frame only (not including lock ring, etc.)?

Better ride than the 20-30 frames from the 70's? - sure.

Better ride than the 531 frames from the 70's? - I doubt it. The finish might be nicer, but the riding qualities would be very close to the same, provided the geometry didn''t get messed with a lot.

Off the top of my head, I'd say it is the distance from the centerline of the bike to the point midway between the two chain rings.