Can't agree with you JT. If you said that to all of the happy Buyers
of my restored Cars, Bikes, and Motorcycles, they would not believe you.

When used properly, 0000 will not take chrome down to nickel. The
key word here is " technique " and what you choose to use along with
the 0000 wool. I have several different methods that work well
depending on the amount of rust and the condition of the remaining
chrome. If you DO get down to nickel, then there wasn't enough plating
left to begin with. Or, you're rubbing a little heavier than you need too.
I suppose your experiences are unique to you and I respect that, but I
have my own.

I'll go as far as saying that if you saw the alloy on my bikes, you would
never guess that steel wool was ever used.

One thing for sure though ... Oxalic acid can be very harmful. It's
something I would rather avoid. :(

The bottom line is - what ever works best for you. :thumb :



Take care,
JohnnyBee. ( This may become like a " Which oil is best thread ? " )

Yes, it's a weak acid compared to hydrochloric, sulfuric or nitric acid but it can hurt you if you're stupid about it. It's a chelator of iron cations. CLR may work just as well on your rusty parts. Not sure what's in that, though. Probably NTA and/or EDTA.

Ethylene glycol, aka antifreeze, is converted by the body into oxalic acid and does a bad job on your or your dog's kidneys.

I've used oxalic in the past to remove rust deposits from quartz crystals. We heated a big washtub of water and oxalic and soaked several hundred pounds of quartz. Worked like a charm.

ITYM "intents and purposes."

Uh - as little as a gram can kill you. It would destroy your stomach and the entire G.I. tract. LD50's should never be taken literally.

Two men, (now both dead) taught me about plating.

The first was Henry, owner of GALAXIE GRILL in Toronto, Canada.

If you had ever been to a Pebble Beach Concours, you would be

familiar with his or comparible quality of work.

The second, Said, was the owner of QUALITY PLATING also in Toronto, Canada.

He was a tenant of mine and allowed me the privilege of "playing". His speciality

was jewellery; silver, gold, rhodium, etc. (New owner, and their advert now says

that they "do chrome".)

I believe that my "creds", speak for themselves.


Remember this:

1) Once you have screwed-up, there is no "second chance"; you must strip and replate!

2) After replating, "bake-out", the hydrogen embrittlement.


Regards,
J T

Good thread. I've been asking where to get oxalic acid on some other threads but I never saw an answer. This thread is getting bookmarked.

There is an Ace (or is that True Value?) not far from here; I'll check to see if they have some of the stuff.

But I'll probably try some of that chrome wheel cleaner too.

A solution of OA should be stored in a airtight container. Otherwise it will absorb CO2 from the air and decompose. Polyethylene, polypropylene, and glass are good candidates. And label it POISON!

Instead of a kiddie pool, I'd opt to build a 2x4 and plywood frame/box. Just wide and tall enough for a frame. Line it with heavy mil plastic sheeting. Dip the entire frame in the solution.

I find this thread very interesting. It just goes to show
how serious many of us are about our hobby. :)

Different strokes for different folks ! ( no pun intended )

Now, where did I put the dang steel wool ?




JohnnyBee. - 31 road bikes, 2 touring bikes, 1 fold-up and 9 mountain bikes.
Pheeewww.....

That was pretty much the intent of my posting this, to give a clue on where to find the stuff locally and what the container looked like, didn't mean to rehash older threads on the subject. But sometimes a rehash is good, freshens up the thinking some, and adds to good judgement for us amateurs out here.

Thanks for the cautions and tips and tricks and alternatives, appreciate it.

If it warms up above freezing I'll probably mix up a small batch, don't want no popsicles. I thought about a hot plate for the solution but then decided against that due to the potential of making bad vapors. I'd rather die of old age and would prefer not to expedite that experience.

If you look at the pic of the container someone posted, you'll see its sold as wood bleach.

I bought the Savogran wood bleach that treebound posted at a Sherwin-Williams paint store. I've never used it in the high concentrations others have suggested, but it works fine at about two or three tablespoons per gallon of water (don't worry, my tablespoon measure never goes into the kitchen...) I'm pretty fond of my kidneys, so I use rubber gloves and a dust mask when handling the powder.

Here's an example of a rack that I de-rusted this weekend before treatment, not totally dusty, but a pretty thorough dusting of surface rust. This was a cheap part with thin chrome, heavy Schwinn-type chrome cleans up even better.

http://www.boomspeed.com/artoflaw/incoming/rack01.jpg

I used a large under-bed bin for this, but I had to turn it a few times to let all the sides soak.

http://www.boomspeed.com/artoflaw/incoming/rack02.jpg

After rinsing, I used Noxon7 polish to bring up the shine.

http://www.boomspeed.com/artoflaw/incoming/rack03.jpg

Good Monkey for your safety protocol. I'd let you into my lab!

Impressive results there. Very nice indeed! I'm currently polishing some 1982 Campy Record hubs I salvaged from my old wheelset. Using Simichrome metal-polish from Germany. They are coming out like new.

To your success, sir. :thumb:

So far as I know Naval Jelly is a gel product intended to be brushed on steel or rust removal. It is thick enough so it should adhere to surfaces such as a seat tube or other frame areas which would be difficult to submerge.

Per the info I could find it contains phosphoric acid. Is this better or worse than oxalic acid treatment for rust removal?

Phosphoric Acid is an irritant to skin in it's non-diluted form. Won't burn the devil out of you. Much safer than oxalic acid, but as above - impractical for large applications.

It is also used, in diluted form, to flavor some soda-pops. Such as Dr. Pepper.

Agreed. Interesting thread. Not to hijack it, but I've long wanted to try the electrolytic method of rust removal as an alternative to OA (which I've used with good results several times) but haven't. The obvious advantage is that the electrolytic method isn't toxic-just uses washing soda. (I assume people reading this know how it works; if not googling "electrolytic rust removal" will turn up all kinds of info.)
I've never done a whole frame in OA, and in addition to not being wild about the idea of brewing up a huge vat of toxic solution, I also wonder about filling the fork and seat stays with the acid solution through the vent holes and then maybe not getting the neutralizing solution in there after.
On the other hand, electolytic rust removal does involve more setup--got to mess with pieces of rebar or whatever and a battery charger--and apparently it only gets the rust on the surface--that is, in the "sight line" of the anodes--rather than inside the tubes. I can see it working very well in a joint compound bucket for small parts, but a whole frame? Anyone ever tried it? I wonder how consistent it is with a big complex piece like a frame, or whether you might end up with "shadowed" areas where the rust is left behind.
How about it? Anyone know firsthand? I've seen all kinds of forum posts where people mention the method knowingly, but I've never heard a word from anyone who has actually done it.
JV

Back to the oxalic acid for a moment -- several posters have indicated they mix only a few tablespoons of powder to a gallon or pail of water to use for rust removal on bikes. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I just followed the directions on the small tub -- for cleaning wood decks -- and mixed the contents of the entire tub into a gallon of water. So now I am thinking I need to dilute the solution that I saved. Could one of you experienced people second that, please? Thanks.

Your mix is stronger than it needs to be, and certainly more hazardous than a diluted mixture. The formula I'm using works on moderately rusty parts in three or four hours, its possible that yours will work faster (but will there be any metal left?:))

Keep in mind that my formula is completely trial-and-error based, I started with a greater dilution and added the chemical until it worked in a reasonable time frame. I did try a rather stronger batch on an old BMX frame, and it seemed to dull the chrome, so I think it's possible to go overboard.

Thank you, Chris. The chrome on which I used it was indeed deeply rusted, and it did remove the rust fairly expeditiously with assistance from a brass brush. But there were fumes and I was working in sub-freezing weather in a garage with the door open.

I think I'll start by diluting it 4:1 and work from there. Thanks again.

Thanks also, Bill, you posted same time as I did. There are spots remaining on the wheel rims that are similar to those on the scissors.

I really think that most inexperienced OA users use to much. I shake a small amount of the crystals 2-3 tablespoons into a 5 gallon bucket of water. I handle the parts with my bare hands and wash my hands with dish soap and then baking soda, same with the parts I use a white scotchbrite pad. this mixture cleans rust off parts after 1-2 days of soaking.

before

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...n/IMG_2533.jpg

after

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...n/IMG_2568.jpg

I literally use just a couple of forefinger/thumb pinches in a gallon of warm water. I toss in all the rusty bits that'll stay submerged, and let soak for a day.

Rinse and dry. Done.

I used about the amount you described, just a few pinches in a bucket with about 4 gallons of water. I used a baking soda bath after, then some clean water and a sponge. I cleaned this bike for my friend using OA on the crank, fork and most everything else.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3283/...b3392579_o.jpg

Something tells me your friend will be very pleased!

Thanks, I gave it to her for christmas. I wasn't sure what to do with that bike. I couldn't flip it for much since it is lower end and a womens frame, so my wife asked me to fix it up for her best friend. She has an 8 year old daughter and I think she plans on riding with her this summer. Her favorite color is purple, so that didn't hurt either.

Looking at the photo of it I wish I had made the brake cables a little shorter, I may have used black bar tape instead also.