bigwoo

Jeez, I forgot about this thread...
I have since seen some early 90's LeMonds made in Italy, but none in my size
Ivandarker,
Pics Man, Pics!!

cb400bill

Silly statement.
Of course we want to see some pics.

old and new

Dell Santa in Cal. as one member stated, late '80s. Very late '80 maybe in part of 90, 91 from Scapin in Italy. Don't know where the Billotto Bros. came into play, I reckon just after Scapin. Hearsay as far as I know. First I heard of Billotto was here at BF two years ago. Not asserting that they didn't, it's just haven't read it otherwise; by collectors or anyone else. Billotto sold bikes , had 'em built as much as fabricating frames so I'm not sure about anything Billotto.
LeMond scaled-down, really stopped selling bikes from '92ish thru '94'95 ? Around the time (92,3) he took up with Trek. He always had a crappy relationship with Trek, from jump street. They never supported him.
This all aside from what I've read in any single article, more from reading intermitently here and there.
When looking at LeMonds, Trek Stores didn't have them. They were sold under different franchising deals. Stores that sold bikes other than Trek sold LeMonds. By the late '90s, Ski Shops and large Sporting Good Stores; Hermans , SkiBarn and few others had LeMond. Just 2 years ago an LBS near me had Trek but no LeMond. Said they could swap one from a friendly competitor, NOT the the local depot but they COULD handle Warr.Issues. Could never understand why the seperation. Trek stores selling Giant but not Trek ! ??
First LeMond that I had an opportunity to buy was an NOS Zurich, 853, full Campy, an '95 sold as "96".
Just a few years ago. Lugged bikes had dif. geom. and you can recognize the color schemes. One that comes to mind has those red, yellow, blue, green dayglow fades. Other examples too. You can tell. 1997(6) was a big sales year, the start of more big years to come. Most were Taiwan despite what we hear. GREAT bikes and it matters little to me; Taiwan, Italy, USA...lugged, Tig'd, AL., 853, 525, TT OX, Ti. Carbon, all of them are some of the best bikes ever IMO. It's a shame that Trek slayed him.
The member HERE and NOW that stated that HIS bike is Taiwan, THESE are the individuals, the very best sources from whom we learn, not the bloggers or the shop rats. (or me) e-bay has examples as well

mtnbke

Lemond bikes were most certainly produced outside the Trek factory, because when Greg started the company they weren't owned by Trek. Trek bought up Lemond roughly around the same time that they acquired Gary Fischer and Klein.

Clark Kent is said to have built some titanium Lemond frames, Bilato the older steel ones, and Calfee made some of the early carbon frames. However, others say Rayon (Mitsubishi) made the carbon bikes early on. However, team Z may have ridden on Merlin frames for a season and Litespeed another. Whether any frames ever produced by those two were branded Lemond's I've never figured out, however, they definitely were Team Z bikes.

The Reynolds 853 Lemond bikes produced at Trek are epic if you're drinking the 'steel is real' Kool-aid.

Okay, here is what I pieced together from people at Trek (I lived in Wisconsin and knew a couple of Trekkie insiders) and from the UCI crowd that trains or is based in Boulder County, CO where I live now, and that like to talk. Essentially the business relationship soured when Lemond began vocalizing his concern that Trek's poster child Lance, wasn't competing on an even playing field. Lemond was disgusted to learn of Armstrong's involvement with (now disgraced) Dr. Michele Ferrari, that relationship lasted through the 2004 Tour.

Trek had originally shared a vision with Lemond of making his brand the flagship of the road line (although they also sponsored elite level teams on Klein bikes). The bad blood between Lance and Lemond starts here, its definitely been said that Lance refused to ride on a Lemond branded bike, and hence the Trek nameplate was on all the tour bikes.

Where the relationship really sours is when Lemond finally becomes disgusted with Lance cheating his way to seven tour victories. Lemond started piping up, saying various things on the record about Lance's complicity and his tainted victories. This obviously didn't go over well at Trek as Lance is their poster boy, and they certainly didn't appreciate an insider like Lemond undermining everything they had invested in Lance and his image.

Where it finally blew up after Hamilton, Heras, et. al. was when Floyd Landis was still knee-deep in his charade, Lemond had agreed to testify against Landis, on the record to the effect that Landis had admitted doping, and that furthermore Landis had admitted that Lance had doped as well. Essentially the Landis hearing was really a fishing expedition to try and delve up dirt on Armstrong, and if Landis would testify as to what he knew he was being offered leniency. Lemond was specifically going to testify to a conversation he had with Landis regarding about how the UCI was primarily interested in negotiating for testamony concerning Armstrong, not Landis himself. Landis had asked Lemond what he should do. Lemond had advised Landis to tell 'em what he knew. Landis had said he couldn't do that (to Armstrong).

Where it jumped the shark was when Landis's manager called up Lemond the night before Lemond was to testify before the United States Anti-Doping Agency. Lemond was to testify concerning that conversation, and corroborating that Landis was doping, and that Landis knew and acknowledged that Lance had been doping, but Floyd wasn't willing to say so on the record. Landis's manager tried to blackmail Lemond, letting him know that if Lemond testified to the USADA regarding their conversations (which he considered to be priviliged) that they would leak that Lemond had been sexually assaulted in his youth.

After that there was no going back, that Trek would eventually relegate the Lemond brand out of production was essentially a given.

What is interesting in all of this was that Lemond was adamant that Landis could help fix cycling by being forthright and honest, and not engage in the pattern of disingenous denials and duplicity that previous cyclists had entrenched themselves with. Lemond was adamant that if Landis disclosed his doping, and Armstrong's use, that it would help heal the sport. This conversation took place before Landis's B sample had come back dirty. Landis's comments to Lemond were essentially that he didn't see what good it would do, and that others (Armstrong) would only get hurt in the process. Lemond was seeing a bigger picture where seemingly every single US Postal rider had been caught doping, that is every single rider except Armstrong.

The real story in all of this is actually Jonathon Vaughters. He was a Postie with Lance as well and has never been open with anyone about what took place on that team. However, very clearly Vaughters was a person of incredible integrity. He once refused a Cortizone treatment when Tour doctors were telling him to take if for "saddle sores" after he had been stung by a bee. Vaughters refused and ultimately abandoned the tour, something he would never finish. He went on to be the director sportiff of Chipolte/Garmin/Slipstream a team that independently and with complete transparency blood tests its cyclists throughout the year and during conmpetition.

While Trek decided to kill the Lemond brand in retaliation for Greg Lemond speaking out against their poster boy, destroying the vision of Lemond bicycles, Vaughters emerged with a new vision of a clean US team.

I've always felt that riding a Lemond was a protest vote, saying that you wouldn't buy into the Trek regime. Ultimately, Trek made a choice and they chose to protect their corporate investment and brand goodwill with Armstrong's image. I for one believe that had Landis come clean, and had Armstrong (though I can't imagine the arrogant Texan doing so) come clean as well that it would have saved cycling. The sheer hubris of Armstrong is why the european media treated lance so poorly (talking to Dr. Ferrarri on a cell phone during a race, dumping bags of blood in the dumpsters, etc.). No that we know that Lance was riding away from a peloton of cyclists that were doping it becomes nearly inconcievable to maintain that he was riding cleanly.

I think Lemond bikes are going to be collector items in the near future. Both for the epic frames that they are/were and also because of the nature of the whole Lemond versus the tainted Trek train, that was invested in winning, at all costs.

To this day I'm continually astounded that cyclists realize that Lance, Hamilton, Landis, Heras, and others were doping, that Trek screwed Lemond, and that they still go out and buy a Trek Madone. It just boggles my mind.

I like that Trek supports Dream Bikes in Madison, WI but that doesn't make up for the complicity.

Lister Farrar

I share mtnbke's view. I think Lemond is just trying to do the right thing, and that often gets ugly, such as the Landis threat. I'm hoping someone picks up the brand and it becomes a symbol of consumer power and taking a stand. My son has a Zurich, and it's a very nicely built and riding bike.

luker

wow. a let's-bash-lance thread. That is the other name of the road racing sub-forum, btw. I think that I would have been caught doping if the powers that be had piss-tested me as much as Lance has been tested. The French really, really wanted to catch him, but didn't. They even resurrected a B sample from almost 20 years ago, one without a pedigree, and assigned the positive to Lance. Oddly, they let that one go...all that said I'd jump at the chance to ride with Greg. He is one of my abiding heros and one of my inspirations during my puny little racing career.

Doesn't matter, the discussion is really about Lemond 853's...not Greg Lemond, not Lance Armstrong. I'll add my two cents by saying that I've only ridden one but it is high on my list for a new steelie (if I can't find a deal somewhere on a 953 )

Reynolds 753

I know that Calfee made some carbon bikes that were branded with the LeMond name in 1990/91. I have an issue of Bicycle Guide from 1988 (the year LeMond rode for PDM) that has a review of what I think may be the first LeMond "production" bikes - Della Santa was the maker of those. I had a 1999 steel 853 Buenos Aires for several years and loved it - upgraded to a 2005 Ti-Carbon Tete de Course and love it even more.

I can dig it out and scan the article if you're interested. Here is a link to my website: www.velovault.webs.com

embankmentlb

Lemond somehow inherited and/or took on this roll as the authority on anti-doping. Being the idealist that he is, he seems to call them like he sees them. I personally think Lemond knows what he is talking about. That being said he is fighting a war that will never be won. In many ways i wish he had just walked away from the sport & never looked back. Let the dopers have their era.
In 2002 i was in the market for a modern road bike, my old road bike was 13 years old at the time. It was between a Lemond or a Klein as my friend in the biz sold these two brands. The Lemond, as nice as it was, just didn't quite have that wow factor i wanted in my new purchase. It was lug-less steel & the paint was just OK. Blah. The Klein was lighter and oh so pretty! I don't regret buying the Klein. I think the Lemond brand was to passive in a market that requires innovation. If the bikes were branded Armstrong they would have suffered the same fate.

luker

I really sympathize with Lemond. He won the tour in 1990, and in 1991 he got his butt handed to him by a wealth of non-stellar riders. The birth of EPO, I'm sure. But that was then, and now is now, and doping controls are pretty hard to get around nowadays.

Everyone knows how I feel about Kleins. I have one, and don't plan on selling it soon, but I'm looking for a state of the art steelie to see how it compares (I've been riding a Havnoonian coursa, but I'm thinking there are better materials out there...)

joe englert

i believe the first lemonds were built by roland della santa. in fact, theres a guy on monterey california cr that is trying to get 1400.00 for his all super record della santa built lemond. id buy it but its a little high for me(price that is). i talked to della santa and he confirmed that he did build some of these. anybody out there know when lemond is going to be in the bay area for a appearance. id love to see him. i know he comes here once in a while. wish he would lose a little weight though. seems like most of those guys really put it on after retirement

Lister Farrar

Thanks everyone for such a civil tone; usually this issue gets ugly, quickly. I don't want to make this into a doping thread, but a few misconceptions jump out, and the OP did ask about Lemond and his stand. For one, the 2005 tests were a study on old samples to test a new method, and six of them from one rider were positive. The fact they belonged to a particular rider was only revealed when that rider released his doping forms to the journalist investigating whether an exemption had been allowed (TUE's are noted on doping forms). The lab had no idea. But they were positive, just not sanctionable.
As for not testing positive, Claudia Pechstein, the four time Olympian multi-medalist speed skater just got banned for two years for showing unusual blood parameters, over nine years. https://www.bild.de/BILD/sport/mehr-s...y=Download.jpg She's never tested positive, but the Court of Arbitration for Sport clearly agreed she had manipulated her blood. https://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/docu...11.25%20PR.pdf

Similarly unusual blood values were published from this years Tour. Lemond knows what he's talking about. Buying his bikes is a small way to show support for clean cycling.

embankmentlb

Chuckk, you have some very nice rides!

bonechilling

I just posted this in the Retro Roadies thread, but here in another pre-Trek LeMond, the sister to my La Vanquer track bike.



My source on Bilatto Brothers involvement with LeMond comes from the shop owner from whence my aforefeatured Greg LeMond track bike originates (it's a team bike). His story is that Bilatto was making all the Greg LeMonds, Masis and Guerciottis that he sold in the store. Another mention of Bilatto Brothers' complicity with Greg LeMond, completely independent of my source, is here (scroll down to LeMond).

An important distinction that needs to be made here is that Trek has NEVER purchased the LeMond name or company. They simply licensed it from Greg, and the lawsuit involves the termination of that licensing agreement.

Six jours

I rode for Plymouth-Reebok in 1989. The LeMonds we rode were supposedly all built by DellaSanta. The tubing was SLX. I believe the same frames were used in '88, but am not entirely sure. HTH.

joe englert

now, della santa and some guys at the lbs told me that some of the earlier lemond frames broke, this was pretty common i guess. dont know which ones. not the della santa ones iguess since he told me about it. besides della santa makes the best frames in the world in my opinion. by the wasy bonechilling, yours looks like a della santa model. check the one out on cr monterey.

bonechilling

I would love to have bought a Della Santa for $250, but unfortunately mine is assuredly not made by him. The road bike has an Italian threaded bottom bracket (not that Della Santa couldn't have used one), and both bikes have a 10-Speed Drive Imports sticker on the downtube and no "DS" in the serial number. Unless I'm missing something, these fit squarely into the Italian import category.

Also, as Della Santa apparently made primarily team bikes, it would be odd that my bike would be made of SL rather than SLX, and feature a pump peg (decidedly not-PRO) and no number hanger (the PROest thing ever). Also, it doesn't really match the pantographing or other features (dropoputs, brake bridge) I've seen on the Della Santa LeMonds.

Sorry, but what is CR Monterey?

Ivandarken

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Ivandarken

trying...

Ivandarken

As you can see... I am using this old thread to learn how to post photos... bear with me and enjoy.

kbjack

Looks like you succeeded...and in a big way. The pre-Trek Lemonds have just been added to my "someday" folder.

Any shots of the seat cluster?--looks like an interesting wrap-around.

BlankCrows

I think when Joe writes CR he is referring to Craigslist. There is a nice Lemond out by the California coast right now.

CL Monterey Bay Lemond

bigwoo

Dang Ivandarken!!

That Team is gorgeous! More photos please.... How does she ride!?

Barrettscv 

I watched this and maybe should have purchased it: https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_755wt_1167 The idea of a Lemond Victoire Titanium Road Bike w/Ultegra is very appealing.

Specifications:

Frameset: Reynolds 3/2.5 double butted titanium, handmade.

Fork: Bontrager Race Lite, OCLV 110 Carbon.

Headset: Crane Creek

Handlebar: 3TTT Forgie XL. 46 cm.

Stem: 3 TTT Forgie XL. 120mm

Shifting: Shimano Ultegra Levers, front and rear derailleur. 9 speed.

Brakes: Shimano Ultegra

Crankset: Shimano Ultegra. 175mm length arm. Front chainrings: 53/39. Rear cassette: 12-25

Wheelset: Bontrager Race Lite, 20 spoke front, 24 spoke rear. DT New Aero Spokes.

Saddle: Selle San Marco, Era Luxe, Cro-Moly/Leather.

Pedals: Shimano Ultegra SPD.

Computer: Not included

Geometry:

Frame Size: 59cm. Head Angle: 74'. Seat Angle: 72.5'. Standover: 831mm. Seat Tube: 616mm. Head Tube: 191mm. Top Tube: 591mm. Chainstays: 417mm. BB Height: 270mm. Wheelbase: 1013 mm. Trail: 53mm

GrayJay

I remember a rumor that some of the early 90s steel Lemonds were built in Columbia by Canopus. Anyone else have info on Lemond production in Columbia?

rat fink

Check this one out: https://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst...496170623.html