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Please help ID this touring frame

Old 03-14-09, 12:44 PM
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Please help ID this touring frame - Windsor?

I rewrote this with all the information that I've been able to collect. The mystery still remains unsolved.

1. Possibly 70s or 80s Windsor, although there is no touring/rando model published anywhere.
2. Has canti bosses and 3 water bottle mounts on downtube.
3. Currently has 700c wheels. I'm not sure 27" would have fit very well.
4. The seat post is 26.6mm.
5. The fork and frame are both stamped with the same serial #6172 (on the seat tube).
6. Was purchased in San Diego (Windsor was made in Mexico).
7. Probably Tange tubing per T-Mar.
8. SunTour GS stamped rear dropout.
9. Fastback seat stays.

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Last edited by illwafer; 01-05-10 at 11:41 PM. Reason: new info and pics
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Old 03-14-09, 01:40 PM
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The lugs and dropouts are identical to a mid-70's japanese bike I have. The lack of down-tube shifter braze-ons would also suggest 70's. The fast-back seat stays throw me for a loop though. No idea who could have made it, but they clearly spent some time on it given the chrome lugs and the bottle boss details.

Very nice.
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Old 03-14-09, 02:09 PM
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Windsor...later model with Tange tubing, SunTour dropouts, '80s probably...I've never seen one with canti bosses, might be sort of rare, or they could have been added on.
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Old 03-14-09, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1
Windsor...later model with Tange tubing, SunTour dropouts, '80s probably...I've never seen one with canti bosses, might be sort of rare, or they could have been added on.
i am in san diego, so you could be on to something. windsor factory was in mexico.
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Old 03-14-09, 02:23 PM
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thanks for getting me on the right path, guys. it looks like its the same thing as this post:
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/514969-catch-year-windsor-super-carrera.html
Windsor Super Carrera

edit: hmm not quite, but very close.
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Old 03-14-09, 02:33 PM
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Does the top point of the head tube lug have 3 holes? If it does it is probably one of those Mexican C________'s. They are decent copies of the Colnago's.
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Old 03-14-09, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by dit
Does the top point of the head tube lug have 3 holes? If it does it is probably one of those Mexican C________'s. They are decent copies of the Colnago's.
The lugs to not have any holes in them.

Also, upon further inspection, the bottom bracket has 2 stamps on it.

One says "63".
The other says "1".
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Old 03-14-09, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1
Windsor...later model with Tange tubing, SunTour dropouts, '80s probably...I've never seen one with canti bosses, might be sort of rare, or they could have been added on.
+1 for Windsor. The canti bosses and abundance of water bottle mounts are likely later additions.
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Old 03-14-09, 07:06 PM
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Nothing in the '78 catalog has cantis, not even the AM-6 Touring - perhaps a later model? I'm stumped.

-Kurt
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Old 03-15-09, 04:32 PM
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updated first post with a new pic and other info.
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Old 03-15-09, 05:31 PM
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Another vote for Windsor. The fastback stays are identical and the that's the correct serial number location. Check the bottom bracket threading. I believe that Windsor, like most Mexican manufacturers, used Italian threading. As stated 27" wheels and chrome lugs point towards the 1970s. At that time it would be rare to see an Italian touring bicycle with SunTour dropouts. If the BB threading is Italian, that's a good indicator that it is most likely a Windsor, probably with added fittings.
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Old 03-15-09, 05:40 PM
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What is it about the stays that makes them "fastback stays"?
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Old 03-15-09, 05:44 PM
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T-Mar, the treatment of the SN and chainstays (at both the dropouts and seatlug) are unmistakably Windsor; I think that's pretty clear.

What remains is what Windsor came with braze-ons for centerpulls and three bottle cages - if any came in this fashion at all. If not, what model was this before the modifications? I know that at least a few Windsor models are not shown in the '78 catalog over at bulgier.net.

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Old 03-15-09, 06:16 PM
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Just a though: it seems there is not that much clearance for large tires/fenders so perhaps the BOs are later add-ons? On my touring bike (700c) I have about 3.5'' between the canti bosses and the bridge/crown. Or perhaps clearances were already generous on those 70s bikes with long reach side/centre pull brakes...
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Old 03-15-09, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by tuz
Just a though: it seems there is not that much clearance for large tires/fenders so perhaps the BOs are later add-ons? On my touring bike (700c) I have about 3.5'' between the canti bosses and the bridge/crown. Or perhaps clearances were already generous on those 70s bikes with long reach side/centre pull brakes...
I suspect the canti bosses were added later, perhaps so the frame could be used in cyclocross racing.
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Old 03-15-09, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Blue Order
What is it about the stays that makes them "fastback stays"?
The stays attach to the back of the seat lug, as opposed to the sides.

Originally Posted by cudak888
T-Mar, the treatment of the SN and chainstays (at both the dropouts and seatlug) are unmistakably Windsor; I think that's pretty clear.

What remains is what Windsor came with braze-ons for centerpulls and three bottle cages - if any came in this fashion at all. If not, what model was this before the modifications? I know that at least a few Windsor models are not shown in the '78 catalog over at bulgier.net.
Granted, those two characteristics point towards Windsor but wouldn't it be better to have three? And wouldn't we feel like lumps on a log if the threads were French or English?

Originally Posted by tuz
Just a though: it seems there is not that much clearance for large tires/fenders so perhaps the BOs are later add-ons? On my touring bike (700c) I have about 3.5'' between the canti bosses and the bridge/crown. Or perhaps clearances were already generous on those 70s bikes with long reach side/centre pull brakes...
I was thinking the braze-ons (at least the canti bosses) were later additions because that's very little fork rake for a touring bicycle. It also doesn't have double eyelets (for racks and fenders) on the dropouts, which would be typical on Grand Touring models.
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Old 03-15-09, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
I suspect the canti bosses were added later, perhaps so the frame could be used in cyclocross racing.
Possibly, but I doubt it. Two sets of bottle bosses on the top of the down tube are more indicative of a touring set-up. And I'm not sure, but it looks like there may be a 3rd set underneath the down tube?
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Old 03-15-09, 07:15 PM
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Is there any way of checking the bottom bracket for Italian vs English threading without having either one of those bb to try to fit? I'd rather not take apart another bike if I don't have to.

Also, I've read that Windsor uses 27.2mm seat posts as opposed to 26.8mm.

edit: just plopped a 26.8mm seat post in. fit perfectly. 26.8mm it is. now what?


Here's the really interesting part (to me). I measured the chainstays, and although I don't know how to specifically measure it, I went from middle of bb to middle of dropouts...and the measurement is around 45cm or 17.5". I measured my Miyata 1000 and it was a little shorter than that! Wouldn't that speak to the authenticity of this being a touring bike?

Last edited by illwafer; 03-15-09 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 03-15-09, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
I suspect the canti bosses were added later, perhaps so the frame could be used in cyclocross racing.
The frame came in the waaaay back of a used bike shop's storage locker. Chances are it wasn't touched for 15 years. I think that would rule out cyclocross.
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Old 03-15-09, 08:17 PM
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English fixed cups (drive side) are left hand threads versus right hand theads for Italian. You should be able to visually tell which way the threads go. English bottom bracket sheells are also typically 68mm wide while Italian are 70mm wide.

Windsor used 27.2mm posts in their top model, the Columbus framed Professional. Lesser models used Tange tubing, which takes 26.8mm posts, unless it has been reamed or honed. All the Professionals I've seen have used Campagnolo dropouts and did not have fender eyelets, so this is probably not one of them. However, to be sure, look inside the botom of the fork's steerer tube for the helical ridges found on Columbus steerer columns. That also reminds me - remove the fork and check for stampings on the steerer column. If it's Columbus you should find a dove. If it it's Tange, it should say so and there should be an alpha-numeric, two character, date code.

Cyclo-cross bicyles go back way past 15 years, so I wouldn't use that as an indicator.
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Old 03-15-09, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by illwafer
The frame came in the waaaay back of a used bike shop's storage locker. Chances are it wasn't touched for 15 years. I think that would rule out cyclocross.
Why would that rule out cyclocross? CX has been around for a hundred years. Lots of U.S. locales have had 'cross racing scenes for 20+ years as well.
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Old 03-15-09, 08:46 PM
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thanks guys for all of your help. definitely my bad on the cyclocross reference. i'm not up on the scene, so i assumed it was relatively new.

the bottom bracket shell measures 68mm and left hand threaded, so it is an english bb (good for me personally).

t-mar, i removed the fork, and i'm not sure exactly where the stamp would be. i looked all over the fork, and here's the only thing i found:
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Old 03-16-09, 08:27 AM
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The stampings match those on the seat lug, so I assume they were applied by the bicycle manufacturer. The stamp could be just about anywhere on the steerer column and sometimes they can be quite faint. Did you check inside the bottom of the steerer tube for the helical ridges? On the plus side,I do notice that there are reinforcing tangs on the inside of the fork blades. If it's boom era, as we think, that's the sign of a good frame.

Edit: Centurion also offered models that looked very much like this and they were made in Japan with English threading. However, these usually have a distinctive serial number on the BB shell. Maybe Kurt would be kind enough to verify the BB threading on his Windsor? Maybe Acer-Mex subcontracted some frames to Japan or changed their thread standards?

Last edited by T-Mar; 03-16-09 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 03-16-09, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar
The stampings match those on the seat lug, so I assume they were applied by the bicycle manufacturer. The stamp could be just about anywhere on the steerer column and sometimes they can be quite faint. Did you check inside the bottom of the steerer tube for the helical ridges? On the plus side,I do notice that there are reinforcing tangs on the inside of the fork blades. If it's boom era, as we think, that's the sign of a good frame.

Edit: Centurion also offered models that looked very much like this and they were made in Japan with English threading. However, these usually have a distinctive serial number on the BB shell. Maybe Kurt would be kind enough to verify the BB threading on his Windsor? Maybe Acer-Mex subcontracted some frames to Japan or changed their thread standards?
Thanks for you help with this T-Mar.

To the right of the number stamp, there is a weird symbol. It's a circle, but it starts as a straight line...hard to explain but it is in the above pic.

I forgot to check the steerer tube. Will do so tonight when I get home.

Speaking of Acer-Mex, I did a little searching to see if this could be a Raysport, but I couldn't find much info.
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Old 03-16-09, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by illwafer
The frame came in the waaaay back of a used bike shop's storage locker. Chances are it wasn't touched for 15 years. I think that would rule out cyclocross.
Why? Cyclocross has been around a lot longer than that...
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