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It isn't a Paramount

Old 03-25-09, 09:05 PM
  #1  
Rabid Koala
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It isn't a Paramount

Not a Paramount, but I am not all that familiar with the Japanese Schwinns. What is it?

https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MakeTrack=true
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Old 03-25-09, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Rabid Koala View Post
Not a Paramount, but I am not all that familiar with the Japanese Schwinns. What is it?

https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MakeTrack=true
https://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.p...postcount=8135
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Old 03-25-09, 09:08 PM
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Voyageur 11.8 or Super Le Tour 12.2.

Seller got Numbskull Of The Day from me.

He'd be better off selling the Paramount badge for $100 bucks. It's the single most valuable bit on the whole bike.

-Kurt
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Old 03-25-09, 09:22 PM
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The Carrera brakes are nice. I used a set on my Raleigh Competition a few years back.

I did email the seller to tell him that it wasn't a Paramount. I can't wait for the response.
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Old 03-25-09, 09:48 PM
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How can you tell it's not a Paramount? Lugs? Other things? Just curious.
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Old 03-25-09, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Rabid Koala View Post
The Carrera brakes are nice. I used a set on my Raleigh Competition a few years back.

I did email the seller to tell him that it wasn't a Paramount. I can't wait for the response.
The Carreras were also offered as the base sidepulls on the Paramounts very late in the game. Don't know when it started, though the '77 catalog has them listed as base equipment, with the NR sidepulls as an upgrade.

Cheapos.

-Kurt
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Old 03-25-09, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by brockd15 View Post
How can you tell it's not a Paramount? Lugs? Other things? Just curious.
#1: Head lugs and BB shell (screams the Voyageur/Super LeTour chromies)
#2: Dropouts with no adjusters and bolt-in stops.
#3: Seat stay caps sit low on an ugly, bulky seat lug
#4: Fork crown
#5: Tabs in fork blades for front wheel
#6: Highly unremarkable dropout-to-tube brazing (in the case of the Paramounts, silver soldered)
#7: Dura-Ace groupset, though I've seen some Paramounts with them, is generally not common.

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Old 03-25-09, 10:18 PM
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The serial number, 1A03935, is not a Paramount number, but a Japanese serial number indicating the frame was made in January, 1981.

The only Schwinn lightweight available with a fully chromed frame that year was the Japanese built Voyageur 11.8 (the Super Le Tour 12.2 which was also available with a fully chrome plated frame was only manufactured during the 1976, 1977, and 1978 model years).

This bike is a Voyageur 11.8 (VC5 - chrome 25") masquerading as a Paramount.

1981 Voyageur 11.8 catalog page
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Old 03-25-09, 10:39 PM
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Its an Aramount. It says on the top tube.
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Old 03-25-09, 10:42 PM
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The headbadge photo is the one that's got me most interested. If you look at the wear marks, the remnants outlined seem to be that of an old Centurion badge.
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Old 03-26-09, 03:34 AM
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Whoever worked on this hoax, certainly put in some effort, but failed on one biggy, No Campagnolo bits. The wornout decals, including the world champion stripes, and the headbadge will fool someone. Possibly a kitten killer?
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Old 03-26-09, 03:53 AM
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Might be a world woyager. It has nicer lugs though. Certainly not a Paramount.
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Old 03-26-09, 04:11 AM
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Cripes, that's a tall bike! Is it for someone 8 feet tall or so??
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Old 03-26-09, 08:38 AM
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He pulled the listing, after posting this response to my comments (and several others):

Q: Hi, that is not a Paramount. The frame details and serial number type and location are not correct. Most likely the bike is a high end Japanese Schwinn, not a bad bike but certainly not a Paramount. It appears that someone put Paramount decals on it.

A: I disagree, but I'll post your opinion here in case prospective bidders would like to add any input one way or the other. Thanks! Dave.
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Old 03-26-09, 09:15 AM
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I'm the seller. I've pulled the auction.

I bought the bike as you see it in the photos. All I did to it was hose off a thick layer of dust.

My pre-auction Google searches (specifically, the quote "these frames were built by Panasonic for Paramount" from this thread) convinced me that it was a Japanese-made Paramount. Further investigation, spurred by the discussion here, has me believing that apparently there's no such thing.

No big deal either way. I'll list the headbadge tonight on eBay. I'll also remove the stickers from the bike, shoot new photos, and re-list it as simply a vintage chrome road bike.

Thanks for all the input.
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Old 03-26-09, 09:23 AM
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whew, glad this did not turn into a flame war.
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Old 03-26-09, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by davemuggleston View Post
I'm the seller. I've pulled the auction.

I bought the bike as you see it in the photos. All I did to it was hose off a thick layer of dust.

My pre-auction Google searches (specifically, the quote "these frames were built by Panasonic for Paramount" from this thread) convinced me that it was a Japanese-made Paramount. Further investigation, spurred by the discussion here, has me believing that apparently there's no such thing.

No big deal either way. I'll list the headbadge tonight on eBay. I'll also remove the stickers from the bike, shoot new photos, and re-list it as simply a vintage chrome road bike.

Thanks for all the input.
Wow! Great response to our criticism. Thanks for taking what we said to heart and doing the right thing! BTW, welcome to C&V!

As mentioned by Stan Cooper, what you really have is a Schwinn Voyageur, a very nicely made bike. Someone around here has headbadge (I might), and if you wanted, JRrestore could make you a set of decals. It looks as if most if not all of the original components have been swapped. You might think of just selling it as a frameset.

Best of luck and stop by and visit more.
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Old 03-26-09, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by davemuggleston View Post
I'm the seller. I've pulled the auction.

I bought the bike as you see it in the photos. All I did to it was hose off a thick layer of dust.

My pre-auction Google searches (specifically, the quote "these frames were built by Panasonic for Paramount" from this thread) convinced me that it was a Japanese-made Paramount. Further investigation, spurred by the discussion here, has me believing that apparently there's no such thing.

No big deal either way. I'll list the headbadge tonight on eBay. I'll also remove the stickers from the bike, shoot new photos, and re-list it as simply a vintage chrome road bike.

Thanks for all the input.
Dave, thanks for your post. Pulling the eBay listing was the responsible thing for you to do.

The bike you have is a 1981 Voyageur 11.8. It is a beautiful, well made bike, but should be advertised as what it is, not what someone made it appear to be by applying Paramount decals and head badge.

The Japanese "Series" Paramounts were made between 1991 and 1993, and none were chrome plated.
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Old 03-26-09, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
He'd be better off selling the Paramount badge for $100 bucks. It's the single most valuable bit on the whole bike.

-Kurt
Well, that first-gen Dura Ace crank ain't too shabby, either.
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Old 03-26-09, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by bikingshearer View Post
Well, that first-gen Dura Ace crank ain't too shabby, either.
True, but I usually regard those as a $25-35 item. That's what I'd sell one for, anyway.

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Old 03-26-09, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by davemuggleston View Post
I'm the seller. I've pulled the auction.

I bought the bike as you see it in the photos. All I did to it was hose off a thick layer of dust.

My pre-auction Google searches (specifically, the quote "these frames were built by Panasonic for Paramount" from this thread) convinced me that it was a Japanese-made Paramount. Further investigation, spurred by the discussion here, has me believing that apparently there's no such thing.

No big deal either way. I'll list the headbadge tonight on eBay. I'll also remove the stickers from the bike, shoot new photos, and re-list it as simply a vintage chrome road bike.

Thanks for all the input.
Excellent! I wish all ebay sellers were this ethical. It is a nice bike, cleaned of the stickers and listed for what actually is should produce good results. I'd likely sell it as a bare frame, and sell the components separately.

Welcome to Classic and Vintage!
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Old 03-26-09, 02:19 PM
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Is definitely a Voyageur 11.8. It even has the Shimano Altus FD and RD, stock on the Voyageur 11.8 (I have one myself). Nice bike, just not a Paramount.

Here's the crank and FD on my 1981 Voyageur (unfortunately, the bike is the black one, and not the all chrome version), as well as a pic of the dropout and RD.





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Old 03-26-09, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by davemuggleston View Post
I'm the seller. I've pulled the auction...
I most heartily commend you for your honesty and commitment to do the right thing (and I dare say I speak for the whole community when I say that). Quite unfortunately, very few eBay sellers would have pulled the auction to correct the listing - I must say that it is a most welcome breath of fresh air to see a gentleman such as yourself who will go through the effort to see that his machine is represented accurately.

All the best,

-Kurt

P.S.: You might want to replace the badge with one of the Japanese Schwinn badges, and re-sell the Paramount badge separately. I'm sure that there will be a Paramount owner out there that will be most glad to purchase it.
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Old 03-26-09, 02:50 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
I most heartily commend you for your honesty and commitment to do the right thing (and I dare say I speak for the whole community when I say that). Quite unfortunately, very few eBay sellers would have pulled the auction to correct the listing - I must say that it is a most welcome breath of fresh air to see a gentleman such as yourself who will go through the effort to see that his machine is represented accurately.

All the best,

-Kurt
Geez, Kurt - this reads like dialog from Upstairs, Downstairs.
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Old 03-26-09, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Picchio Special View Post
Geez, Kurt - this reads like dialog from Upstairs, Downstairs.
That's better then dialogue from Are You Being Served, if nothing else.



Guess I shouldn't have been that quick about proofreading it. Then again, I did not wish to repeat verbatim what others have said here.

I'll shut up and go back in my cave now...

-Kurt
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