Genuine Brooks saddle vs. off-brand?
10-19-10, 09:11 AM
#76
rayr0683
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10-19-10, 09:51 AM
#78
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One more vote for the lower range Brooks'. They are durable, comfortable, age nicely, and the company has a good track record of standing by its product. I think the value lies in the lower range models though (B-17, B-68, even the Pro can be found at close to $100 at https://joyride-cycles.com/shop-by-br...-saddle-chrome). 2-3 times as much for a swallow or a swift I don't understand, unless you are flush or able to limit yourself to one or two bikes and saddles. I think that invalidates 98% of C&V forum members though.
As a casual rider though he will need to understand and be comitted to the break in period. I've bought more than one used Brooks cheap from people who didn't have the patience and ended up preferring something with gel in it.
The Giles Berthoud's are lovely too, but on a Suburban?
As a casual rider though he will need to understand and be comitted to the break in period. I've bought more than one used Brooks cheap from people who didn't have the patience and ended up preferring something with gel in it.
The Giles Berthoud's are lovely too, but on a Suburban?
10-19-10, 10:05 AM
#79
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The difference that doesn't show up so well in those pictures is the Titanium Rails. There is a steel railed version of the Swallow for under $200 which is a more appropriate comparison to the VO 6. You can also chop and tie a Brooks B-17 special, (like I did here https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...t=chop+and+tie ) and it'll look a lot like a swallow, but it'll still essentially be a chopped B-17, significantly wider, and significantly heavier than a swallow. So yes if you're just going for looks the VO6 is a bargain, and while the Swallow is not exactly a bargain, I actually think something like a Brooks Professional or Swift is a better substitute for a Swallow if you're going for function rather than style.
Still I am intrigued by the VO, and Origin 8 saddles. It's nice to have less expensive options. Back in the day there were alternatives to Brooks, some of them quite good, maybe these are good, but in 30 years will they still be as good as this 70s pro I found the other day? It's kinda hard to say without a time machine.
70s Brooks Professional by mattface, on Flickr
Still I am intrigued by the VO, and Origin 8 saddles. It's nice to have less expensive options. Back in the day there were alternatives to Brooks, some of them quite good, maybe these are good, but in 30 years will they still be as good as this 70s pro I found the other day? It's kinda hard to say without a time machine.
70s Brooks Professional by mattface, on Flickr
10-19-10, 10:08 AM
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Have you ever tried anything else?
I spent a long time looking at reviews of all different kinds of Brooks knock-offs before I pulled the trigger on my VO saddle (Flyer knock-off). I'd say a good 95% of negative reviews were from people who had never ridden the knock-offs and are just retro-grouches about their saddles. The other 5% felt that the leather was too soft (I've heard the opposite complaint lodged against Brooks, so....) or maybe the rivets weren't as nice. Most people that actually had them on their bikes seemed to like them.Personally, I have two convictions.
I find it incredibly hard to believe that there are zero advancements to be made in the realm of leather saddles. I mean, Brooks hasn't even changed the length of their rails to compensate for steeper modern frame angles—they'd rather you get a fancy set-back seatpost. They are the ultimate retro-grouches. Whether VO or Persons or Gyes represent these advancements remains to be seen.
I find it incredibly easy to believe that Brooks includes a significant mark-up on their saddles solely because they're the 800 lb gorilla of leather saddles. If other manufacturers want to try to make a quality saddle at a more affordable price-point, I find it not only a good but also completely plausible idea.
I spent a long time looking at reviews of all different kinds of Brooks knock-offs before I pulled the trigger on my VO saddle (Flyer knock-off). I'd say a good 95% of negative reviews were from people who had never ridden the knock-offs and are just retro-grouches about their saddles. The other 5% felt that the leather was too soft (I've heard the opposite complaint lodged against Brooks, so....) or maybe the rivets weren't as nice. Most people that actually had them on their bikes seemed to like them.Personally, I have two convictions.
I find it incredibly hard to believe that there are zero advancements to be made in the realm of leather saddles. I mean, Brooks hasn't even changed the length of their rails to compensate for steeper modern frame angles—they'd rather you get a fancy set-back seatpost. They are the ultimate retro-grouches. Whether VO or Persons or Gyes represent these advancements remains to be seen.
I find it incredibly easy to believe that Brooks includes a significant mark-up on their saddles solely because they're the 800 lb gorilla of leather saddles. If other manufacturers want to try to make a quality saddle at a more affordable price-point, I find it not only a good but also completely plausible idea.
10-19-10, 10:15 AM
#81
rayr0683
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Hello,
I shouldnt laugh too hard, cause Ive been injured, back and knee, surgeries along with it. I have a 1985 Stock Schwinn Le Tour Luxe.....its about 26 pound bike. I am older now that in 1985, and heavier and bigger. Im not fat at all, pretty solid still, even though much bigger framed, I was 175 lbs back in 1985, and now Im about 240 pounds, and Im 6'1" tall.......I had an Avocet Touring Seat, from 1985 on the Schwinn LeTour Luxe. The bike is a very nice, great built touring bike. 1985 was a good time for Schwinn LeTour's....However, after the injuries, I recently ventured out onto my bike again. But shorter distances, very short, neighborhood. I know I needed a new saddle. I would like a Brooks, based on what Ive read....but never sat on one. I went to my Local Bike shop...the owner told me that Id be better off, with a new gel Style Seat, with groove channel, or cutout channel. He was pushing $40.00 Serfas E-Gel Hybrid....or Lookin Gel Seats. He told me I could try them, and keep my $40.00 credit, to upgrade to another saddle, if it didnt work out. He sort of refused to selll me a Brooks, when I asked. He told me that it would kill my new found desire to get into riding again...he said it would feel like I was sitting on a 2X4!! So, for now, I am trying out a $40.00 Serfas E-Gel Dual Density Hybrid. This is not the Serfas E-Gel RX Hybrid...although he sells that also for $59.00.....Im not totally thrilled with the seat Im trying now, this Serfas....it still kinda hurts my Butt Bones.....I think I may need a Seat with Springs, to absorb some shock on my injured back.....and maybe a bit of more adjusting seat position. Has anyone here ever tried the newer Gel Type Seats?? Some of these also have Spring Suspensions..like Serfas...I saw one at REI with Springs, and E-gel Serfas, and was only $40.00 price. I thought that a Flyer may have worked for me....and to add to the confusion, now seeing these knock offs, like Gyes, and VO..etc...My Seat has only One Hex Bolt to tighten it to the Clamps on the bottom, so its harder to adjust any tilt up or down of the nose....Anyone have any advice for me??? Im slowly getting back into this, but the Avocet was hurting me too much...the Serfas feels much softer by hand, but not on my butt so much....maybe its the adjustment?? Anyone like any of the gel Seats, like Serfas, etc...???
Thanks, ray
I shouldnt laugh too hard, cause Ive been injured, back and knee, surgeries along with it. I have a 1985 Stock Schwinn Le Tour Luxe.....its about 26 pound bike. I am older now that in 1985, and heavier and bigger. Im not fat at all, pretty solid still, even though much bigger framed, I was 175 lbs back in 1985, and now Im about 240 pounds, and Im 6'1" tall.......I had an Avocet Touring Seat, from 1985 on the Schwinn LeTour Luxe. The bike is a very nice, great built touring bike. 1985 was a good time for Schwinn LeTour's....However, after the injuries, I recently ventured out onto my bike again. But shorter distances, very short, neighborhood. I know I needed a new saddle. I would like a Brooks, based on what Ive read....but never sat on one. I went to my Local Bike shop...the owner told me that Id be better off, with a new gel Style Seat, with groove channel, or cutout channel. He was pushing $40.00 Serfas E-Gel Hybrid....or Lookin Gel Seats. He told me I could try them, and keep my $40.00 credit, to upgrade to another saddle, if it didnt work out. He sort of refused to selll me a Brooks, when I asked. He told me that it would kill my new found desire to get into riding again...he said it would feel like I was sitting on a 2X4!! So, for now, I am trying out a $40.00 Serfas E-Gel Dual Density Hybrid. This is not the Serfas E-Gel RX Hybrid...although he sells that also for $59.00.....Im not totally thrilled with the seat Im trying now, this Serfas....it still kinda hurts my Butt Bones.....I think I may need a Seat with Springs, to absorb some shock on my injured back.....and maybe a bit of more adjusting seat position. Has anyone here ever tried the newer Gel Type Seats?? Some of these also have Spring Suspensions..like Serfas...I saw one at REI with Springs, and E-gel Serfas, and was only $40.00 price. I thought that a Flyer may have worked for me....and to add to the confusion, now seeing these knock offs, like Gyes, and VO..etc...My Seat has only One Hex Bolt to tighten it to the Clamps on the bottom, so its harder to adjust any tilt up or down of the nose....Anyone have any advice for me??? Im slowly getting back into this, but the Avocet was hurting me too much...the Serfas feels much softer by hand, but not on my butt so much....maybe its the adjustment?? Anyone like any of the gel Seats, like Serfas, etc...???
Thanks, ray
One more vote for the lower range Brooks'. They are durable, comfortable, age nicely, and the company has a good track record of standing by its product. I think the value lies in the lower range models though (B-17, B-68, even the Pro can be found at close to $100 at https://joyride-cycles.com/shop-by-br...-saddle-chrome). 2-3 times as much for a swallow or a swift I don't understand, unless you are flush or able to limit yourself to one or two bikes and saddles. I think that invalidates 98% of C&V forum members though.
As a casual rider though he will need to understand and be comitted to the break in period. I've bought more than one used Brooks cheap from people who didn't have the patience and ended up preferring something with gel in it.
The Giles Berthoud's are lovely too, but on a Suburban?
As a casual rider though he will need to understand and be comitted to the break in period. I've bought more than one used Brooks cheap from people who didn't have the patience and ended up preferring something with gel in it.
The Giles Berthoud's are lovely too, but on a Suburban?
10-19-10, 01:18 PM
#83
rayr0683
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Put it this way, he said, Id love to taqke your $100.00 plus dollars....but Im certain you wont be happy, it will feel like a 2X4 .....you can try any Gel seat till your happy with it, bringing back each one. He also had a variety of brooks saddles that he could have sold to me. So there you have it....Now, hopefully some advice......Thanks, Ray
10-19-10, 01:19 PM
#84
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There used to be Ideale of France. Leppers is a Dutch bramd of leather saddle quite good but not sold outside its native land.
I'd give the new Taiwan brands time to come into their own for cyclists.
But Brooks in my estimation, will always remain the pre-eminent saddle brand for cyclists the world over.
I'd give the new Taiwan brands time to come into their own for cyclists.
But Brooks in my estimation, will always remain the pre-eminent saddle brand for cyclists the world over.
10-19-10, 01:38 PM
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And considering how many people say "I own one and rode it and I hate it" about Brooks saddles.....
10-19-10, 01:42 PM
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Put it this way, he said, Id love to taqke your $100.00 plus dollars....but Im certain you wont be happy, it will feel like a 2X4 .....you can try any Gel seat till your happy with it, bringing back each one. He also had a variety of brooks saddles that he could have sold to me. So there you have it....Now, hopefully some advice......Thanks, Ray
What this boils down to is, I think, something like this: I can't advise you. You might like a leather saddle. You might hate it. I can't predict. Where's Blue Anchor? I'm in Lawrenceville and would be happy to let you try out any of my leather saddles, even the ones I like!
10-19-10, 01:55 PM
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My two cents on (atleast) a Person's Majestic saddle......
So far, I've ridden on it maybe 200 miles. Hurt like hell breaking in, but now it's fine. However, the leather is cut too long. IOW's, the adjustment bolt is extended out rather far already (came this way new) not giving much in the way for future adjustments. Also, the skirts began splaying out rather quickly. Not sure if that's normal, but it began chaffing the inside of my thighs. So, I figured trimming the skirts on my shop wheel would help. Not really. So, I had to lace them up. Lastly, not that this is real important to me, the die started cracking in no time. And, true, shoddy craftsmanship. Maybe they were trying to make it look vintage, old fashioned, back of the barn shop crafted......I dunno. But, to say the least, I could've had a Brooks for the same price I paid, comfort comparisons aside.
Don't know if I could sell it in good conscience to get something back, so I'm going to get some new rivets, drill out the old, and trim the leather back. Though I've never done anything like this, I'm sure I could do a better job of hammering rivets.
So far, I've ridden on it maybe 200 miles. Hurt like hell breaking in, but now it's fine. However, the leather is cut too long. IOW's, the adjustment bolt is extended out rather far already (came this way new) not giving much in the way for future adjustments. Also, the skirts began splaying out rather quickly. Not sure if that's normal, but it began chaffing the inside of my thighs. So, I figured trimming the skirts on my shop wheel would help. Not really. So, I had to lace them up. Lastly, not that this is real important to me, the die started cracking in no time. And, true, shoddy craftsmanship. Maybe they were trying to make it look vintage, old fashioned, back of the barn shop crafted......I dunno. But, to say the least, I could've had a Brooks for the same price I paid, comfort comparisons aside.
Don't know if I could sell it in good conscience to get something back, so I'm going to get some new rivets, drill out the old, and trim the leather back. Though I've never done anything like this, I'm sure I could do a better job of hammering rivets.
10-19-10, 03:26 PM
#88
rayr0683
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hello RHM,
First, Thank You vbery much for answering me directly...to my concerns. Im really having a hard time. I thought the newest technology, with E-Gel would feel like a Lounge Chair compared to my now hardened Avocet Touring Saddle....from 1985...but not the case. There are some softer ones I could still try, but maybe Leather would be right for me, I know its hard to predict....very individual dependent.
Secondly, Thanks for such a generous offer, to try Leather Saddles that you own...Thats very nice. Im not a thief, nor would I abuse anything lent to me. But that would be a nice way of testing out a leather seat, without making a costly mistake. Im not in a position to make that mistake, especially at this time. I live near Berlin, Atco, Hammonton, NJ....Im about Half way between Philly,PA and Atlantci City,NJ. I once worked at QuakerBridge Mall, when I was doing construction.....I think its near Lawrenceville?? Right? I also used to go to Princeton Record Exchange....when records were still popular...
It doesnt take me long to drive to Princeton......about 20-25 minutes. If you wanna email me, my email is : rayr0683@comcast.net Thanks very Much for the Response and offer! Ray
First, Thank You vbery much for answering me directly...to my concerns. Im really having a hard time. I thought the newest technology, with E-Gel would feel like a Lounge Chair compared to my now hardened Avocet Touring Saddle....from 1985...but not the case. There are some softer ones I could still try, but maybe Leather would be right for me, I know its hard to predict....very individual dependent.
Secondly, Thanks for such a generous offer, to try Leather Saddles that you own...Thats very nice. Im not a thief, nor would I abuse anything lent to me. But that would be a nice way of testing out a leather seat, without making a costly mistake. Im not in a position to make that mistake, especially at this time. I live near Berlin, Atco, Hammonton, NJ....Im about Half way between Philly,PA and Atlantci City,NJ. I once worked at QuakerBridge Mall, when I was doing construction.....I think its near Lawrenceville?? Right? I also used to go to Princeton Record Exchange....when records were still popular...
It doesnt take me long to drive to Princeton......about 20-25 minutes. If you wanna email me, my email is : rayr0683@comcast.net Thanks very Much for the Response and offer! Ray
Leather saddles aren't for everyone, but the same can be said of padded ones. I've tried padded "gel" saddles and hated 'em; felt hot and dead at the same time, and seemed to cut off circulation to my legs. I have a saddle with a little very firm padding, and it's not so bad; but for any long distances I prefer a good hard leather one. I think it depends a lot on how you sit on the bike; I lean pretty far forward most of the time, with a lot of weight on my hands, so springs under the saddle don't do much but annoy me.
What this boils down to is, I think, something like this: I can't advise you. You might like a leather saddle. You might hate it. I can't predict. Where's Blue Anchor? I'm in Lawrenceville and would be happy to let you try out any of my leather saddles, even the ones I like!
What this boils down to is, I think, something like this: I can't advise you. You might like a leather saddle. You might hate it. I can't predict. Where's Blue Anchor? I'm in Lawrenceville and would be happy to let you try out any of my leather saddles, even the ones I like!
07-07-14, 08:55 AM
#92
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Talking of knock off's have a look at these. They way cheaper than you can dream of.
Bicycle Leather Saddles in Kanpur, Uttar Pradesh, India - Nasiruddin & sons
Bicycle Leather Saddles in Kanpur, Uttar Pradesh, India - Nasiruddin & sons
Last edited by P3T3R; 07-07-14 at 09:01 AM.
07-07-14, 09:12 AM
#93
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Seriously?
Talking of knock off's have a look at these. They way cheaper than you can dream of.
Bicycle Leather Saddles in Kanpur, Uttar Pradesh, India - Nasiruddin & sons
Bicycle Leather Saddles in Kanpur, Uttar Pradesh, India - Nasiruddin & sons
Those'll last about 100 miles.
And comparing to the Brooks Pro? [shakes head again...]
07-07-14, 10:08 AM
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I have saddles made by both Brooks and by Gyes and I'd recommend either one. I think Brooks is slightly better, but both are good. Gyes is probably a better value.
I'm more than a little dubious about anything made in India. If the price were low enough however I would try one. It would have to be in the neighborhood of $30 for me to take the risk. More than that and I'd opt for the Gyes.
I'm more than a little dubious about anything made in India. If the price were low enough however I would try one. It would have to be in the neighborhood of $30 for me to take the risk. More than that and I'd opt for the Gyes.
07-07-14, 10:13 AM
#96
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I have a Gyes B-17 knock-off, branded and sold under the name Cardiff Cornwall. The rail-to-canticle joint failed at the two spot welds. This failure is not uncommon, as I found it reported elsewhere. Otherwise, the leather held up well for about 2000 miles on my tourer.
I would ride it again, if I could get the weld repaired without having to remove the leather first. It's just a square opening into which the rail rod is fed, and a spot welded on each side to tack it in place. Does this sound do-able to anyone? With a TIG welder? I'm not experienced with this at all...
I would ride it again, if I could get the weld repaired without having to remove the leather first. It's just a square opening into which the rail rod is fed, and a spot welded on each side to tack it in place. Does this sound do-able to anyone? With a TIG welder? I'm not experienced with this at all...
07-07-14, 10:31 AM
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Those'll last about 100 miles.
And comparing to the Brooks Pro? [shakes head again...]
All said and done cycling (for leisure/fitness/competetion) is slowly picking up in India and for people into this kind of cycling, the only source of information is forums like this.
07-07-14, 11:16 AM
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I've put a number of miles on my gyes G-06H (the swallow knockoff with the cutout). No problem so far other than scuffing from when I flipped the bike to change a flat on the road. I was concerned that with all that material gone it'd flex too much. So far that's not been the case. Don't know whether it's due to the laminate on the bottom or what, but it's been comfortable. Probably only have 500-1000 miles on it though, so might not be enough to judge durability, but it was enough to order another, sprung, saddle from them for a build I'm doing for my wife.
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07-07-14, 11:47 AM
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A GS-17A is comparable to a B15 Swallow. GS-17A-$70, B15-$225
I took the prices from Crow Cycle Co. and Wallingford Bike Parts and rounded to the nearest whole figure.
I wouldn't tell you not to buy a Brooks though. I like mine and I doubt that you will miss the extra $60 much 5 years from now.
07-07-14, 11:51 AM
#100
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Weren't those images of the Pro that you linked above? If not, my bad. If so, your bad.