Does it matter if an Italian bike is not made in Italy?
#126
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 29,528
Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint, GT Timberline 29r, Marin Muirwoods 29er, Trek FX Alpha 7.0
Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5219 Post(s)
Liked 3,564 Times
in
2,331 Posts
leave him alone - he's English
--- or ---
he probably prefers to be proud of English bikes, ya know?
--- or ---
he probably prefers to be proud of English bikes, ya know?
#127
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,060
Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
--- or ---
They've never owned a British sports car. Talk about the pot calling the kettle ...
#128
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: STP
Posts: 15,223
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 821 Post(s)
Liked 253 Times
in
141 Posts
This post might get us further off topic, so I'll make it brief. Many years ago, I owned a Fiat 850 Spider with the 900cc engine. What a wonderful little machine! It was red, economical, handled well, had a Bertone styled design, and when retro-fitted with the aftermarket electric fuel pump from PBS Engineering, ran like a top. If we must get into reliability issues, let's chat about my Triumph TR6s. Sorry about the digression!
#129
South Carolina Ed
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Greer, SC
Posts: 3,885
Bikes: Holdsworth custom, Macario Pro, Ciocc San Cristobal, Viner Nemo, Cyfac Le Mythique, Giant TCR, Tommasso Mondial, Cyfac Etoile
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 343 Post(s)
Liked 287 Times
in
137 Posts
There is no doubt that Japan and much of Asia have lead the way in quality consumer goods for more than a generation. While there are a few areas of exception, Europe and the US have had to play catch up and are still doing so. I had a couple of TR-4s and an MGB. They were/are wonderful cars but more hobbies than transportation.
#130
Viscount
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gloucester, England.
Posts: 1,016
Bikes: Mercian, Viscount x2, Holdworth La Quelda, Gundle Trade Bike, Williams/Mercian Tourer, Itera,
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Enough said.
Being English does not mean I need to self edit. Get real man.
I have had Italian cars and bikes.
And girlfriends
#131
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,060
Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
Enough said.
(Oh, and I didn't mean to imply that you need to self-edit because you're English. That comment was meant for you individually.)
#132
Viscount
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gloucester, England.
Posts: 1,016
Bikes: Mercian, Viscount x2, Holdworth La Quelda, Gundle Trade Bike, Williams/Mercian Tourer, Itera,
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
How about being patronising.
You is good at that boy!
Colonials... Grow up and listen to the case before being patronising.
You ever stripped a so called Italian classic and checked the sloppy brazing?
I have. Numerous times
#133
Viscount
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gloucester, England.
Posts: 1,016
Bikes: Mercian, Viscount x2, Holdworth La Quelda, Gundle Trade Bike, Williams/Mercian Tourer, Itera,
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
"Your post wasn't near worthy of a logical reply."
See, insult instead of logic.
Exactly what I said previously.
See, insult instead of logic.
Exactly what I said previously.
Last edited by viscount; 06-18-09 at 05:15 PM. Reason: missing comma.... changes the sense.
#135
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,060
Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
Well, I guess then by inductive logic ... no wait! Actually, the fact that you've seen "numerous" examples of sloppy brazing does not entitle you, logically, to infer that all Italian bicycles are sloppily brazed. How exactly am I supposed to "listen to the case" when you never bothered to make it? You simply dismissed an entire nation's bicycles with a single - very patronising - set of comments. As if there aren't numerous examples of sloppy brazing from other nations - I've seen some Dawes that would make your hair curl. And I can't recall an Italian bike that was accompanied by the obligatory phrase "death fork." Have a look in the mirror, Mr. Viscount (which is, in fact, what the old saw "pot calling the kettle black" is really about - you chose to make it about something else, not me.) It's also interesting that you toss your former Italian girlfriends in with Italian consumer goods like cars and bikes, and I'm alleged to be "patronising." Bottom line is, your initial post was one big stereotype - neither accurate nor artfully expressed - that well deserved the response it got from me.
Last edited by Picchio Special; 06-18-09 at 04:36 PM.
#136
Viscount
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gloucester, England.
Posts: 1,016
Bikes: Mercian, Viscount x2, Holdworth La Quelda, Gundle Trade Bike, Williams/Mercian Tourer, Itera,
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Well, I guess then by inductive logic ... no wait! Actually, the fact that you've seen "numerous" examples of sloppy brazing does not entitle you, logically, to infer that all Italian bicycles are sloppily brazed. How exactly am I supposed to "listen to the case" when you never bothered to make it? You simply dismissed an entire nation's bicycles with a single - very patronising - set of comments. As if there aren't numerous examples of sloppy brazing from other nations - I've seen some Dawes that would make your hair curl. And I can't recall an Italian bike that was accompanied by the obligatory phrase "death fork." Have a look in the mirror, Mr. Viscount (which is, in fact, what the old saw "pot calling the kettle black" is really about - you chose to make it about something else, not me.) It's also interesting that you toss your former Italian girlfriends in with Italian consumer goods like cars and bikes, and I'm alleged to be "patronising." Bottom line is, you're initial post was one big stereotype - neither accurate nor artfully expressed - that well deserved the response it got from me.
First my Italian girlfriend (one that is) has no connection with bikes, cars, or you. So don't use her as part of your frenetic spoutings. I 'tossed' my ex Italian girlfriend into it to show that I was not anti-Italian. Think about it.... (Before you spout might be good advice) You asked for logical argument but didn't listen when you heard it. Patronisation is not something that sits easily with me. Stereotypical or not, (not sure you understand the term actually) I am entitled to air my views without insult I think. So calm down and speak without malice is my advice. You are very capable of making a fool of yourself by the look of it and I do not want to enter into this sort of exchange willingly. But I will stand my corner against anybody....
My 'inferences' are in your head, and whether or not my original post was artfully expressed or not has nothing to do with anything except what is in your own sad head.
All on BF has to be 'artfully expressed' to satisfy you???
Or you have the right to insult me?
What?
You are a God or something.
You think you are Goerge Bush or something!!
Get real man. Grow up & don't be silly.
PS What is the definition of inductive logic? Tell me without looking it up on Google please.
#137
Viscount
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gloucester, England.
Posts: 1,016
Bikes: Mercian, Viscount x2, Holdworth La Quelda, Gundle Trade Bike, Williams/Mercian Tourer, Itera,
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
PS I'm going to bed now. Fairy tales are for my grandchildren and they would not believe this one.
#138
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,060
Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
#139
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,060
Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
#140
Viscount
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gloucester, England.
Posts: 1,016
Bikes: Mercian, Viscount x2, Holdworth La Quelda, Gundle Trade Bike, Williams/Mercian Tourer, Itera,
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Cool! I checked later, ie now, when I should be in bed, and all is cool.
Peace brother. Peace is best?
And some Italian bikes are cool, just the same as English ones are. Or even Americans come to that!
I just happen to have the best Holdsworths so I ain't shy about saying it.
Have a look!
Goodnight!
Peace brother. Peace is best?
And some Italian bikes are cool, just the same as English ones are. Or even Americans come to that!
I just happen to have the best Holdsworths so I ain't shy about saying it.
Have a look!
Goodnight!
#142
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,060
Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
The Italian, generally, are overrated - I've said that consistently. But the good ones are quite good, and deserve their reputation. OK? You may not be an officer (I'm not in a position to know), but you're definitely a gentleman.
Incidentally, Your challenge re: induction compelled me to revisit Karl Popper, which made my head spin. Let's stick to bikes.
Last edited by Picchio Special; 06-18-09 at 06:05 PM.
#143
Viscount
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gloucester, England.
Posts: 1,016
Bikes: Mercian, Viscount x2, Holdworth La Quelda, Gundle Trade Bike, Williams/Mercian Tourer, Itera,
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
OK. We're good. Maybe recheck the posts where I said the post-war British builders are superior to the Italians generally. Not shy about saying that. Wouldn't trade my pre-war Hobbs Superbe, either.
The Italian, generally, are overrated - I've said that consistently. But the good ones are quite good, and deserve their reputation. OK? You may not be an officer (I'm not in a position to know), but you're definitely a gentleman.
Incidentally, Your challenge re: induction compelled me to revisit Karl Popper, which made my head spin. Let's stick to bikes.
The Italian, generally, are overrated - I've said that consistently. But the good ones are quite good, and deserve their reputation. OK? You may not be an officer (I'm not in a position to know), but you're definitely a gentleman.
Incidentally, Your challenge re: induction compelled me to revisit Karl Popper, which made my head spin. Let's stick to bikes.
There is good, indifferent and bad in all spheres. Bicycles included.
I just think that good English bikes are second to none. (Especially Italian and Japanese, but not meaning to be controversial here, you understand)
Check my Bates. Better than Hobbs, probably
The post-war circumstances here and in Italy limited opportunities considerably.
Meanwhile enjoy your Hobbs. (Any pics online?)
Me never been an officer, but I like to think I'm the other.
Not a Viscount either, I just like Viscounts. Nobody is perfect
Re the cars, I've had Alfas, Lancias and Ferraris, as well as humble Fiats, and cool as they are, they are all xxxxing expensive to maintain in my experience.
(Won't even mention Italian females here just in case.... but I do have a soft spot thereabouts.)
Now I just enjoy my Holdsworths and Bates bicycles.
Still looking for a cool Italian bike though...
Bicycles are simple and satisfying things and long may they exist.
Sincere apologies to the OP! It just happened.
#144
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Örebro, Sweden
Posts: 1,318
Bikes: Monark sportser 1970, Monark sportser 1970ish, Monark folder, Mustand 1985, Monark Tempo 1999, Monark 318 1975, Crescent 319 1979, Crescent 325 c:a 1965, Crescent Starren 2002 (hybrid/sport), Nordstjernan 1960`s cruiser.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
...at the end of the day it seems impossible for some to apprehend or accept that even italian bikes are just...bikes! The italian myth is made of small scale production (hard to come by) and the allround cycling culture in Italy. But, theres no evidence of things "hard-to-come-by" automatically are superior. Its only evidence of a pre-modern mode of production. A fair part of the "classic & vintage" is indeed an extension of hard to come by and small population.
I would say the myth is equal when it comes to italian football/soccer; the allround culture claims it to be top of the pops, but when looking at their national side and results over the years they claim few successes. But hey, people are very concerned about football in Italy...
This is an open forum. Obviously there will be disagreements. Me, I´m just baffled certain views gets discrimination and alleged to be non-valid. For sure, no one gets to be a better biker due to the brand...it would be bloody hard to prove anyway!
I would say the myth is equal when it comes to italian football/soccer; the allround culture claims it to be top of the pops, but when looking at their national side and results over the years they claim few successes. But hey, people are very concerned about football in Italy...
This is an open forum. Obviously there will be disagreements. Me, I´m just baffled certain views gets discrimination and alleged to be non-valid. For sure, no one gets to be a better biker due to the brand...it would be bloody hard to prove anyway!
#145
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NW Burbs, Chicago
Posts: 12,156
Mentioned: 200 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2993 Post(s)
Liked 3,710 Times
in
1,393 Posts
This would be a good time for my favorite patronizing English joke.
Why do the English drink warm beer?
Lucas refrigerators.
Why do the English drink warm beer?
Lucas refrigerators.
#146
Viscount
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gloucester, England.
Posts: 1,016
Bikes: Mercian, Viscount x2, Holdworth La Quelda, Gundle Trade Bike, Williams/Mercian Tourer, Itera,
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Except that the previous poster (before the half asleep iab) was Swedish rather than English.
So you, iab, have got problems with Europeans generally, as opposed to just English? (That I can understand because you were once a colony).
But how sad in this day and age to continue the stereotype....
Well, I won't descend to your levels, but I got to say that a certain minority of US backwoodsmen/rednecks give the many truly good, worldwise Americans a bad name worldwide.
No wonder there is so much prejudice against those types here in EU, and worldwide.
Blame Bush for that I guess... And his followers, and predecessors.
Wise up man, this is 2009 not 1776.
And English lightweight bikes are still the best
Not warm beer, just hot bikes
I think the space is for the previous hot air.
So you, iab, have got problems with Europeans generally, as opposed to just English? (That I can understand because you were once a colony).
But how sad in this day and age to continue the stereotype....
Well, I won't descend to your levels, but I got to say that a certain minority of US backwoodsmen/rednecks give the many truly good, worldwise Americans a bad name worldwide.
No wonder there is so much prejudice against those types here in EU, and worldwide.
Blame Bush for that I guess... And his followers, and predecessors.
Wise up man, this is 2009 not 1776.
And English lightweight bikes are still the best
Not warm beer, just hot bikes
I think the space is for the previous hot air.
Last edited by viscount; 06-22-09 at 08:02 AM. Reason: Typo
#147
Viscount
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gloucester, England.
Posts: 1,016
Bikes: Mercian, Viscount x2, Holdworth La Quelda, Gundle Trade Bike, Williams/Mercian Tourer, Itera,
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
iabs icon looks a bit like the English Jeeves...
Unconcious servant/butler maybe???
I'm no phsychiatrist, don't ask me
Unconcious servant/butler maybe???
I'm no phsychiatrist, don't ask me
#148
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 29,528
Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint, GT Timberline 29r, Marin Muirwoods 29er, Trek FX Alpha 7.0
Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5219 Post(s)
Liked 3,564 Times
in
2,331 Posts
... yeesh, while you're at it, why don't you blame Bush for the rain too?
#150
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Boulder County, CO
Posts: 1,513
Bikes: '92 22" Cannondale M2000, '92 Cannondale R1000 Tandem, another modern Canndondale tandem, Two Holy Grail '86 Cannondale ST800s 27" (68.5cm) Touring bike w/Superbe Pro components and Phil Wood hubs. A bunch of other 27" ST frames & bikes.
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 110 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
4 Posts
I think its kind of funny how obsessed people get about whether their vanity frame is made in Italy.
In my mind some of the best bikes in the world are made in the USA. America has the best custom bike builders in the world, hands down.
Wanting a 'real' Italian steel bike is like being a beer snob. Its beer, not wine. Instead of worrying about 'who' actually built your Olmo, Colnago, or De Rosa look for a Litespeed, Merlin, or Seven instead. It will be ten times the bike.
So much of the 'italian' thing, at least when it comes to frames, is pure vanity and ethos (The Colngago C40 and c50 maybe being the exception).
The truth is that America has put out some of the best frames ever.
I could care less whether a frame was really made in Italy. That Cannondale is going to to Taiwan, now that is something to lose sleep over.
In my mind some of the best bikes in the world are made in the USA. America has the best custom bike builders in the world, hands down.
Wanting a 'real' Italian steel bike is like being a beer snob. Its beer, not wine. Instead of worrying about 'who' actually built your Olmo, Colnago, or De Rosa look for a Litespeed, Merlin, or Seven instead. It will be ten times the bike.
So much of the 'italian' thing, at least when it comes to frames, is pure vanity and ethos (The Colngago C40 and c50 maybe being the exception).
The truth is that America has put out some of the best frames ever.
I could care less whether a frame was really made in Italy. That Cannondale is going to to Taiwan, now that is something to lose sleep over.