Does it matter if an Italian bike is not made in Italy?
 

From the Italian Cycling Journal:

So what do C&Vers think? Are the only true Italian bikes designed and built in Italy, or is being designed by an Italian master builder enough, or does it even matter?


stan

I think this was relevant 20 years ago and today not so much. I have 2 bicycles made in Canada by an Italian immigrant that I consider Italian bicycles.

According to an interview with the Torelli guy in Road Bike Action a few issues ago, some Italians lied for a number of years about where their stuff was actually being made. It's a misconception to believe that Italian bike stuff is inherently better.

My Mexican-made Colnago Sport is pretty awesome and my "Assembled in Canada" Concorde is also awesome so no, it doesn't matter.

I think the issue here is the 'Made in Italy' sticker. If I have something that says it was made somewhere (wherever that may be) I expect it to be made there. So if I have a 'Made in Italy' sticker on my frame, then I would expect the frame to be brazed/welded in Italy....not brazed/welded in Taiwan and then painted in Italy.

I don't mind Italian companies having bikes made in Taiwan or wherever, as long as it's stated clearly what the country of manufacture is. If the bike is designed by a company and meets that company's standards then it works for me regardless of where it was made.

Rivendell bikes are not made by Grant, but he designs the frames and controls the quality somehow, so they're still Rivendell bikes....again, regardless of where they come from.

I don't really know alot about italian or french bikes, but there seems to be a romantic notion surrounding those bikes, since Italy and France were the cradle of modern bicycling and racing. Even with other things like cars, italians have a reputation of building things with alot of hot technology as well as stunning visuals. Having said that, I'm sure that not every italian bike was a top shelf bike. I'll wager that there was some italian brand that was the equivalent to a Murray or a Free Spirit.

geek

Only to bikesnobs & some collectors, I think.

Makes a good bike easier to obtain, more of them out there, and for less cash.

+100
This has been a growing problem in Italy as the reputation of the "Made in Italy" label has been undercut by a major scandal involving Italian olive oil and expensive handbags made in China. The EU rules in this case are too vague and allow for loopholes:

"Goods whose production involved more than one country shall be deemed to originate in the country where they underwent their last, substantial, economically justified processing."

I posted about this in an earlier thread regarding Campagnolo (which had a bad batch of dropouts made in Asia in the early 80's). I believe that people concerned with the value of Italian goods are taking steps to rectify this situation, perhaps by introducing a "seal of approval" of goods as truly made in Italy, similar to what is done with wine (i.e. the famous Chianti "gallo negro.) This would go above and beyond EU labeling requirements and policy. Some self-policing definitely seems in order if Italy is not to let the "Italian mystique" slip away. Much of it may indeed be mere mystique, as pointed out previously, but that "mystique" does translate into lira, and there is a real issue of integrity involved.

It only matters if you care.

And if you have kids who might get poisoned by Chinese toys, you care.

I don't let kids eat my bikes.

Sure, but they're both part of the same larger issue of deceptive labeling practices. Consumers can't make choices without accurate information, whether that has to do with avoiding toxic toys, tainted dog food, clothes made by children, or whether or not to buy into the "Made in Italy" mystique. If you have a bottle of "Italian" olive oil at home, and it says "imported from Italy," read more closely to see where the olives come from. There are really two separate but related issues: whether you care where your bikes are actually made, and whether you care whether the products you buy are labeled accurately as to their origin. In some instances you may care, in some instances you may not. But you have the right to decide that for yourself, ATMO.

I agree. If the frame has a sticker that says, "Made In Italy", that frame had better have been brazed and painted in Italy. If it was made in Taiwan, it should say, "Made In Taiwan". Either or both can have the same brand name (Colnago, or whatever). The possibility that the two frtames are identical in materials, performance and quality is irrelevant. The issue is fraud (product substitution).

The components typically are stamped with the country of origin, and can/should be treated separately from the frame. I think it is a well established industry practice that the components may/may not come from the country of origin of the frame.

A frame that says, "Made In Italy" but was brazed and painted in Taiwan is fraudulent. <-- I mean this is the legal/criminal sense.

I know you jest, but the lead ban bill intended to protect kids from tainted toys somehow got twisted into including bicycles and motorcycles.. Silly stuff that has led to people going out of business.

Good eye.

I wasn't aware of the over-applied lead ban though! Yikes.

Not as far as quality goes, but yeah, it matters to me. An Italian brand bike made in Taiwan isn't an Italian bike, it's an Italian brand bike.

Like when I was looking for a new frame a few years ago, I was enthralled with the atmosphere of Italy after seeing the Giro broadcast on OLN, I wanted an Italian bike, made by an Italian master. But it went further for me. I knew that Masi no longer made Masis, and seriously doubt that Ernesto Colnago or Irio Tommasini still brazed up the bikes that bore their names. Doesn't mean that Colnagos or Tommasinis are any less terrific bikes.

But I wanted a bike made in Italy, by the guy whose name was on the frame, not by a bunch of hourly paid workers in a factory. And I re-discovered Mondonico in my search. Built by Antonio and Mauro Mondonico themselves, in their own little workshop out behind their house. An Italian bike.

As rufus says, I think that the issue is hand-made, artisan work vs. factory production. There's no way to legislate this -- you could make crap in Italy using exploited labor, or something divine in Taiwan. So you just have to know something about the people who made your bike if that's important to you, and not rely on governments or guilds or the lawyers to do your research.

This is a great point. On the other hand, I don't think most of us have the time to extensively research every purchase. That's where some kind of "seal of approval" can be very helpful. A group of Italian builders committed to maintaining local, artisan traditions and methods could establish their own "guild" with specific criterion for membership. This could have rigorous criteria for inclusion that would at least guarantee a minimum standard, if/as enforced. It wouldn't obviate entirely the need for individual research, but it would narrow the field, as it were. If we all have to "caveat emptor" every freaking second of every purchasing day, we're not going to have time left to actually enjoy our purchases, ATMO. It works for other DOC products; maybe it could work for bicycles.
Edit: To say, I think we all recognize that the likelihood is a great deal more that something exploitative is going to be made in Taiwan rather than Italy, despite the fact the the opposite could theoretically occur - which is one factor arguing in favor of accurate labeling. Different locales/nations have differing labor standards - we all know this. In other words, of course it can be legislated, as long as the legislation is enforced.

I thought individual countries also have specific country of origin laws. Typically, the country of origin is where greater than 50% of the total cost was spent to manufacture the item. This is somewhat sketchy because labor rates in Chian, India and other southeast Asian countries can be up to 100 times less than western countries. So if a (dare I say it) carbon bike in molded in China and painted and Italy, it could very well be "made in Italy". I don't know if they amoritize the mold costs into the part cost though.

Do you know Italy's country of origin laws?

I don't - and this is a great point. I think Italy is trying to address this issue through "DOC" -type regulation and country of origin laws - heretofore, Italy has apparently been lax in this respect. On the other hand, as we all know, it can be difficult for countries to enforce criteria that are stricter than EU regs (i.e. restraint of trade issues are raised).

Exactly. I don't care how well it's put together in Taiwan, if it wasn't made in Italy then it isn't Italian IMO. It's probably not going to make a bit of difference in my world though, as any current Italian frames I do like are few and far between (steel) and insanely priced.

There is a similar situation with the Swiss watch industry. Today, you have watches labeled Swiss Made, Swiss Watch, Swiss Quality, Swiss Movement, and just plane Swiss. All of those designations have a slightly different meaning based on actual Swiss content.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Made

it's marketing BS to me. i collect Hardy fly reels- they used to be made in england, now the same reel comes from asia. imo they're reproductions and i won't own one. same goes for bikes. a bianchi made in asia isn't an italian bike. everything is being made cheaper by cheaper labor. not good.

i also don't like it if i ask for butter and get "butter". or cream and get some powdered, dried paint.

there. the old curmudgeon has spoken.

But, enforcing legislation is difficult outside a country's borders. I'm all for the eradication of deception and sleaziness, don't get me wrong. But the chances of this being a big problem for people interested in 20- to 50-year old bikes is not very great. And at the level of quality and purchase-price we're talking about, if someone doesn't do the research, pay attention to the reviews/reputation that a brand or model gets, they're just throwing their money away.

My Bianchis are clearly marked "Made in Taiwan" on the Pista and "Made in Italy" and "Hand Made in the Reparto Corse" on the Veloce. I also believe that in the case of Bianchi's later steel bikes, the ones made of Reynolds 520 and Reynolds 631 were made in their Taiwan factory while the ones made of Dedacciai or CromoLite tubing are made in Italy. Of course that won't help you with the brand new bikes, particularly the carbon fiber frames.