Alex Singer/Rene Herse, et al - Why the high values?
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Slightly off-topic, but I am still kicking myself for passing up a (Herse-inspired, of course) Alps in a larged framed and beautiful soft yellow at a Tokyo junk shop. I visited it for about two months, but then one day it was gone ;_:
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Sounds more like maybe they just used thicker tubing. The part about temperature control resulting, in and of itself, in a stiffer bike is hocus-pocus.
That could well be, I am not a welder, or familiar to the properties of 531.
The frame I had before the Singer ( Geoffrey Butler) had thicker OD tubes. But, the Singers frame was several ounces lighter and stiffer.
Here is the catch, if the Singer was not a sought after, high priced and outstanding bicycle, then there would be no discussion as Singers would not be known or even exist.
So, just where does the hocus-pocus lay?
That could well be, I am not a welder, or familiar to the properties of 531.
The frame I had before the Singer ( Geoffrey Butler) had thicker OD tubes. But, the Singers frame was several ounces lighter and stiffer.
Here is the catch, if the Singer was not a sought after, high priced and outstanding bicycle, then there would be no discussion as Singers would not be known or even exist.
So, just where does the hocus-pocus lay?
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Sounds more like maybe they just used thicker tubing. The part about temperature control resulting, in and of itself, in a stiffer bike is hocus-pocus.
That could well be, I am not a welder, or familiar to the properties of 531.
The frame I had before the Singer ( Geoffrey Butler) had thicker OD tubes. But, the Singers frame was several ounces lighter and stiffer.
Here is the catch, if the Singer was not a sought after, high priced and outstanding bicycle, then there would be no discussion as Singers would not be known or even exist.
So, just where does the hocus-pocus lay?
That could well be, I am not a welder, or familiar to the properties of 531.
The frame I had before the Singer ( Geoffrey Butler) had thicker OD tubes. But, the Singers frame was several ounces lighter and stiffer.
Here is the catch, if the Singer was not a sought after, high priced and outstanding bicycle, then there would be no discussion as Singers would not be known or even exist.
So, just where does the hocus-pocus lay?
Edit: The Singer's lightness may have been a result of mimimizing the weight of braze-ons and lugs. (And I'll add that Singers are not high-priced and sought after today primarily because of their racing bikes.)
Last edited by Picchio Special; 04-29-09 at 03:42 PM.
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In regard to the superior brazing ability of Csuka that can not be disputed. What else can it be that makes Singer bicycles so much better then many others?
There has to some "Black Magic" or something else going on there.
There has to some "Black Magic" or something else going on there.
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The thing about bicycles is that, despite what many would have you believe, they are truly low tech machines. It's just as affordable and practical for an average joe to buy a classic machine as it is to buy the latest supposed high tech wonder bicycle, and once he gets it, it's just as rideable. If it's speed you're into, that comes from you, not the bicycle. As far as genuine Hersé's and Singers go, some were racing bikes, some were randonneuses, some were camping bikes (heavier touring), some were more like sport touring. There's something for everyone.
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Not really for everyone, and oddly back in the day the Singer was high tech. The cost back then for a Singer racer was nearly three times the price of a Paramount for example.
Singer and Herse did not have any sort of advertising blitz back then.
Singer and Herse did not have any sort of advertising blitz back then.
#59
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I stopped by another shop to chat bikes and was telling my friend about my 1957 Peugeot PLX8 Grande and despite the fact this guy has acres of old bikes he told me that I have to bring it by so he could see it. And he does not usually get too excited by old bikes.
In his nearly 40 years of being a mechanic he has seen one PLX8 and it could have very well been mine as it may have visited the shop he used to work in back in the seventies.
It's a rare bike and I am pondering selling it as it is a bit of a garage queen and should probably go in someone's bike museum... he'd give it a good home if I do.
Anyways... one of the reasons really old French bikes are so desireable is that they were not widely sold in North America before the bike boom and and the European examples were probably ridden into the dust as no matter how nice they were... they were made to be used and ridden and who then would have thought they would end up being collectible some 50 - 60 years later ?
Herse and Singer bikes are on a whole new plane of existence as they are one of a kind bikes...
In his nearly 40 years of being a mechanic he has seen one PLX8 and it could have very well been mine as it may have visited the shop he used to work in back in the seventies.
It's a rare bike and I am pondering selling it as it is a bit of a garage queen and should probably go in someone's bike museum... he'd give it a good home if I do.
Anyways... one of the reasons really old French bikes are so desireable is that they were not widely sold in North America before the bike boom and and the European examples were probably ridden into the dust as no matter how nice they were... they were made to be used and ridden and who then would have thought they would end up being collectible some 50 - 60 years later ?
Herse and Singer bikes are on a whole new plane of existence as they are one of a kind bikes...
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You have no clue. What makes Singers superior to other bikes was their design, not the quality of their brazing. If you think Singer racing bicycles were superior to other racing bikes, than you have been hood-winked. It's not "Black Magic" it's gullibility - yours. The superior Singers were the touring and randonneur bikes, not the racing models.
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Well, I guess then we can assume that the higher the price, the higher the tech. Nonsense, as usual. And believe me, Singer and Herse understood marketing very well - otherwise, they would not have been so keen to have their bikes perform well in competition. Of course, we already know you buy into the nonsense about "temperature control" making for stiffer frames. Then again, you also admit you are not a "welder" and know nothing about the properties of 531 - just willing to repeat historical gossip.
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Yes, the Paramount nut himself admits that they are overrated.
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Picchio you are jealous, and have no answer to what is the magic of the better bicycles, nor will you ever own one
I certainly never said the careful temp control and outstanding brazing by Ernest Csuka is the reason Alex Singer bicycles are as good as they are. Though you Picchio is most certain that sloppy work is acceptable. Yet you Picchio have no answer, and there for clueless as to what makes a top quality bicycle.
The thought of Cycles Alex Singer having some great marketing strategy out of that tiny shop is really funny. Lets think about skill and execution resulting in a bicycle that is sought after to this day.
I certainly never said the careful temp control and outstanding brazing by Ernest Csuka is the reason Alex Singer bicycles are as good as they are. Though you Picchio is most certain that sloppy work is acceptable. Yet you Picchio have no answer, and there for clueless as to what makes a top quality bicycle.
The thought of Cycles Alex Singer having some great marketing strategy out of that tiny shop is really funny. Lets think about skill and execution resulting in a bicycle that is sought after to this day.
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Picchio you are jealous, and have no answer to what is the magic of the better bicycles, nor will you ever own one
I certainly never said the careful temp control and outstanding brazing by Ernest Csuka is the reason Alex Singer bicycles are as good as they are. Though you Picchio is most certain that sloppy work is acceptable. Yet you Picchio have no answer, and there for clueless as to what makes a top quality bicycle.
The thought of Cycles Alex Singer having some great marketing strategy out of that tiny shop is really funny. Lets think about skill and execution resulting in a bicycle that is sought after to this day.
I certainly never said the careful temp control and outstanding brazing by Ernest Csuka is the reason Alex Singer bicycles are as good as they are. Though you Picchio is most certain that sloppy work is acceptable. Yet you Picchio have no answer, and there for clueless as to what makes a top quality bicycle.
The thought of Cycles Alex Singer having some great marketing strategy out of that tiny shop is really funny. Lets think about skill and execution resulting in a bicycle that is sought after to this day.
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As far as ride goes, most of the Herse and Singer bikes are well-designed and executed and given that they are custom made work perfectly for their intended rider. I wouldn't however be sure that one of these bikes bought second hand would be equally as good riding if the new owner were to set the bike up in a different manner. The same holds if the original rider were to make major modifications to his set-up, perhaps following an injury or other.
In my opinion, the "Black Magic" that you address is created by the fact that whoever owns one of these bikes has paid very good money for it and doesn't want to admit to themselves or others that it rides just like other bikes costing a fraction of the price.
Just like anything else, people buy and pay for high end items because they can, not necessarily because there is any measurable advantage. It is nice to believe that there is some measurable advantage, but this is rarely borne out in fact.
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Just look at watches, wines, clothing, whatever product you want to consider. $100 Swatches are often more accurate in keeping time than are watches costing more than ten times as much. $20 bottles of wine have been known to beat bottles worth 100 times as much in blind taste tests. A $100 Rock & Republic t-shirt does not do anything better than do many no-name generic t-shirts that can be had for $5...
Any MBA student will tell you that this is a law of the free markets.
As for marketing, Herse and Singer both actively marketed their products by sponsoring bike clubs and paying riders to ride their bikes. By the time Herse closed in the 80's because virtually nobody was willing to pay the prices that would make the business viable, there was no club sponsorship and no more paid riders... Singer to this day still sponsors a club.
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As long as the frame holds together and stays true, it's not going to make much difference what "magic" hands did the brazing or welding as far as riding it goes. This is not really where the magic lies. There is no magic. What there is rather, is attention to detail, to style, to balance... all intangibles, really. Admiring a copy of David is not the same as admiring the original, even if they may look identical.
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I stopped by another shop to chat bikes and was telling my friend about my 1957 Peugeot PLX8 Grande and despite the fact this guy has acres of old bikes he told me that I have to bring it by so he could see it. And he does not usually get too excited by old bikes.
In his nearly 40 years of being a mechanic he has seen one PLX8 and it could have very well been mine as it may have visited the shop he used to work in back in the seventies.
It's a rare bike and I am pondering selling it as it is a bit of a garage queen and should probably go in someone's bike museum... he'd give it a good home if I do.
Anyways... one of the reasons really old French bikes are so desireable is that they were not widely sold in North America before the bike boom and and the European examples were probably ridden into the dust as no matter how nice they were... they were made to be used and ridden and who then would have thought they would end up being collectible some 50 - 60 years later ?
Herse and Singer bikes are on a whole new plane of existence as they are one of a kind bikes...
In his nearly 40 years of being a mechanic he has seen one PLX8 and it could have very well been mine as it may have visited the shop he used to work in back in the seventies.
It's a rare bike and I am pondering selling it as it is a bit of a garage queen and should probably go in someone's bike museum... he'd give it a good home if I do.
Anyways... one of the reasons really old French bikes are so desireable is that they were not widely sold in North America before the bike boom and and the European examples were probably ridden into the dust as no matter how nice they were... they were made to be used and ridden and who then would have thought they would end up being collectible some 50 - 60 years later ?
Herse and Singer bikes are on a whole new plane of existence as they are one of a kind bikes...
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There are always those that resist and poo poo truly great craftsmen, the cost, and fault their work. The same type can never understand the existence of a DuFour watch when a Timex gets them through their paltry life.
https://s170.photobucket.com/albums/u...t=singer24.jpg
https://s170.photobucket.com/albums/u...t=singer24.jpg
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There are always those that resist and poo poo truly great craftsmen, the cost, and fault their work. The same type can never understand the existence of a DuFour watch when a Timex gets them through their paltry life.
https://s170.photobucket.com/albums/u...t=singer24.jpg
https://s170.photobucket.com/albums/u...t=singer24.jpg
the lugs are all made by nikko. and someone - i forgot who
began this thread - was right: the handwork is pretty pedestrian.
as a framebuilder, i would say the the concept of the assembled
bicycle is far more advanced than the level of torch and metalwork."
Richard Sachs on his influences: "Through the years and over the eras, the following have been my muses, some for a fleeting moment, and others for a longer time: Bill Hurlow, Yoshiaki Nagasawa, Faliero and Alberto Masi, Dario Pegoretti, Jim D'aquisto, Jil Sander, Phillipe Dufour, George Nakashima ... "
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There are always those that resist and poo poo truly great craftsmen, the cost, and fault their work. The same type can never understand the existence of a DuFour watch when a Timex gets them through their paltry life.
https://s170.photobucket.com/albums/u...t=singer24.jpg
https://s170.photobucket.com/albums/u...t=singer24.jpg
As an engineer and a framebuilder with pretty good temperature control, the thought that these guys made a bike that is technically superior to their peers is laughable. If you look at The Golden Age of Handbuilt Bicycles, one thing that is clear is that their geometry was a holdover of the geometry they were used to seeing, not any sort of innovation. The fact that they ignored fashion after they got started, and that now fashion as defined by a very small segment of the cycling community is returning to what they were using is not much of a recommendation.
These certainly are special bicycles, and I understand why they are so highly sought after. However, it isn't because they were technically superior to their peers.
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People are not buying original bikes like this in order to actually ride them. They are buying either as collectors, or just fans who want to own what they like. It doesn't matter if they were or were not technically superior. I'm sure they were NOT technically superior in any special way. They were a style, and they were a local craftsman kind of thing as opposed to a factory-made Peugeot and similar bikes. That's all. They were high-end toys for cyclists who wanted something different. A bicycle was then and still is one of the few things a person can get custom-made at a price an ordinary person can afford if he/she really wants it. I don't think any serious argument can be made that these bikes were technically superior or involved any magic tricks, but that doesn't mean I would not love to own one.
If you move ahead to our current times, a person can buy a bike like that. I certainly would love to be able to buy a new TOEI, for example. But I'm not some gonzo idiot who wants to go blasting at full tilt all the time. I love to ride, but I like to do it at my own pace. My goal is the ride itself, not whatever top or average speed I can make, what my heart rate is, or how many calories I've burned. I'm guessing that randonneuse buyers back in Hersé and Singer's heydey were the same.
If you move ahead to our current times, a person can buy a bike like that. I certainly would love to be able to buy a new TOEI, for example. But I'm not some gonzo idiot who wants to go blasting at full tilt all the time. I love to ride, but I like to do it at my own pace. My goal is the ride itself, not whatever top or average speed I can make, what my heart rate is, or how many calories I've burned. I'm guessing that randonneuse buyers back in Hersé and Singer's heydey were the same.
Last edited by Longfemur; 05-01-09 at 07:49 AM.
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"I love old watches, mechanical cameras and hand-crafted
bicycles too. But I have no time for those whose real
interest in such things is revealed by their snobbery. It
is what makes collecting lovely things so unpleasant, even
for those who don't live paltry lives."
+1 on that A. Winthrop. I've known many photographers who shoot with their coveted Hassleblads and consistently deliver less that average photographs.
As far as watches go, I used to own one of the L.L. Bean watches you mention. I loved it but it finally succumbed to too much salt water. Anyway, I've always been more impressed by what people do with their time, rather than how they measure it.
Scott
bicycles too. But I have no time for those whose real
interest in such things is revealed by their snobbery. It
is what makes collecting lovely things so unpleasant, even
for those who don't live paltry lives."
+1 on that A. Winthrop. I've known many photographers who shoot with their coveted Hassleblads and consistently deliver less that average photographs.
As far as watches go, I used to own one of the L.L. Bean watches you mention. I loved it but it finally succumbed to too much salt water. Anyway, I've always been more impressed by what people do with their time, rather than how they measure it.
Scott