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Poguemahone 06-12-09 10:20 AM

I've been thinking...
 
...of posting a buyers guide, for relatively inexperienced buyers, on the Richmond Craigslist. Given that CL, it might be reviewed with scorn, but heck, some of the stuff I've seen, this could have some use. The following (and it is long) is what I have written. It may wind up in two parts, but I'd be interested in feedback and revisions from here first, as this is (for me anyway) a trusted source. Flame away, folks (or mildly criticize, which is more the tenor of this board).


While Craigslist may seem like a good place to buy a used bike-- and it often is-- it is also quite possible to buy some real turkeys. Many of the sellers here are dealers who sell bikes simply for profit. There is certainly nothing wrong with that. And certainly, many are just people trying to clear an old bike out the garage or basement. There's nothing wrong with that, either. This post is meant to help those who buy bikes spot the less obvious problems with bikes. It concentrates on older road, track, and touring type bicycles, in particular those made of steel, and to an extent, aluminum. This post is for the relative newbie, so I will try to define terms and keep the tools simple.

Frame damage is the first thing a prospective buyer should look for. Very common is the bent fork or damaged frame; it may not be at first apparent. First, look at the fork. if it appears to bend backwards-- at all-- from the head tube angle this is a potential bad sign. After that, check just behind the head tube (this is the part of the bike frame the fork inserts into) on the top tube and down tube. Look for bumps, and deformations in the tubing right there. If you see these, it's probably time to walk away. Turn the frame over, and check the area around the bottom bracket for cracking. (This is especially prevalent on Cannondales and some Aluminum bicycles). The bottom bracket is the part of the frame that the crank-- you know, the thing with the pedals on it-- goes through. Other areas to check for cracking include the head tube and the rear dropouts (this is where the rear wheel inserts into the frame). Cracked frames are best to walk away from, unless you really, really, know what you're doing. Some sellers will attempt to cover cracks (and dents, which I'll talk about soon) with bondo or another filler. Bikes wrapped with stickers may hide damage. Be careful.

Take a good look at the tubes on the frame, and they should appear to be straight. Weird, unsymmetric bends are generally not a good sign, although they're not unknown in frame design. However, if you're looking at an old steel road bike, the main tubes should be straight (exception is a very few Schwinn models, which had a curved seat tube, and some customs). The stays (these come out from the bottom bracket, run to the rear dropouts, the join back to the main frame by the seat post collar-- ie, where the seat post is inserted into the frame, forming a triangle at the rear of the bike) may have some bend in them. However, if the don't look symmetrical, you can do a simple test to check alignment. You will need a string and a ruler. Tie the string to one dropout, run the string over the head tube and back down to the other dropout. Tie the string down opposite the first knot. Take the ruler and measure the distance from the string to the seat tube on both sides. They should be roughly equal; if it is more than 3cm off, you've got a real alignment problem in the frame.

Dents are a mixed bag. On an aluminum frame, they're generally considered death, so walk away. On a steel frame, less so. If the dent has deformed the side of the frame tube opposite the dent, walk off. If it's close to a lug or joint between the tubes, walk off. However, dents in old steel frames does not always make them unrideable. It does, however, make them less valuable.

Some items can be stuck in the frame. One is the seat post. Another is the stem (this part holds the handlebars and connects them to the frame). Bring along a set of metric allen wrenches, and loosen the seat post bolt and stem. You may have to tap on the top of the stem bolt after you loosen it to free the stem. After loosening the bolts, see if you can move the stem and the post. If they are stuck, walk away. You may think you can get the post loose with some WD40 or PB Blaster, and you may be right, but you may not. Sometimes fairly drastic measures have to be used. Note that newer bikes use a different type of stem and headset ('Threadless"), and this advice may not apply on them. If unsure, walk off. But on older steel bikes, the classic quill stem is the most likely.

On to the headset. The headset is the part of the bike that allows the fork to turn. It is, after the rubber parts and cables, on of the most common parts of a bike to wear out. It needs to be properly adjusted. There is a simple adjustment test. Hold down the front brake and shove the bike back and forth, with the wheels against the ground. If you feel a click-click, the headset is too loose. Next, pick the front end of the bike up, leaving the rear wheel on the ground. The front wheel and fork should flop easily to one side or the other. If not, the headset is too tight.

If the headset is properly adjusted, turn the bars from side to side. If the you feel the headset bind at a point in the turn, this could mean the fork steerer tube is bent. Check to see if the binding is caused by an external factor (ie, a cable rubbing on the frame). If not, walk away. If the headset is not properly adjusted, ask the seller to adjust it. A too loose heaset can hide this problem.

Also, if you feel the headset seem to click as you turn it, this likely means the headset is worn to the point it needs replacement. Again, a headset that is too loose will hide this problem. Time to talk down the cost of the bike, at least by 75-100 dollars-- about what a shop replacement will cost. You can replace it yourself, but you'll have to buy some tools and a new headset, and that can become confusing.

Which brings us to the bikes nationality. Bikes are not all built to the same standards, and in particular on older bikes, you can run into national differences on parts. French bikes are pretty and ride beautifully, but the headsets on them are an obsolete threading and no longer made. Unless you really, really trust your shop, or actually know someone who knows the tricks of working on them-- and many shops don't have a clue in this regard-- if you're looking at a French bike with a damaged headset, it's probably time to walk away. Likewise, old Raleighs use a Raleigh specific threading. If you're looking at any old three speed that says "made in Nottingham" anywhere on it (Raleigh made bikes under many brand names) and appears to have headset issues, walk away. Older Japanese bikes used the old "Japanese Industrial Standard", headsets for which can still be found with some effort. A competent shop (or shade tree mechanic) can convert the JIS to the English standard-- but it will cost you some out-of-pocket cash, and requires specialized tools. Even more confusing, some bikes (USA made Raleighs in particular) used a mixed headset, with standard Cups and a JIS headset race. You're likely confused by now, and may understand some of the problems that can be associated with replacing parts.

While we're on the subject of threading, Motobecanes, some Peugeots, and a few other bikes used Swiss threading in the bottom bracket. Replacability is a huge issue. Your only replacement choice are the Phil Wood rings, which are, in a word, costly. Worth it for the high end, but not a beater. Talk down the price on Motobecanes in particular. (Oddly, some Swiss brands-- Mondia in particular-- used French threading. Go figure.).

Frame materials are another point, often used by sellers to pump up a bike. Unfortunately, tubing manufacturers made many different types of tubing, and seller will often confuse them, usually to their advantage. Look, first off, hi-ten means nothing. So does 2040 or 1020 tubing; although they can be on good bikes, they're refered to as "gas pipe" in the bike world. Reynolds 531 was a mainstay for a loooong time, so frames built of 531 tend to be pretty good. But there are a number of grades in 531, though, just to confuse you. Columbus made a mix of tubes, especially in the eighties. Columbus SL or SLX is prized. Ishiwata made some good stuff, as did Tange and Vitus. If in doubt, ask. I could write a dissertation on steel frame tubing, but it is too much for the purposes of this post. In general, Chro-moly beats hi-ten, and Reynolds/Columbus/Ishiwata/tange/Vitus puts the bike in at least the middle of the pack. Do not let a seller pump up the price of bike by extolling the virtues of Hiten or other more lackluster frame tubing, though.

Wheels are another matter. Like headsets, they often need replacement. Check that the spokes are tight and the wheels realtively true (they shouldn't wobble from side to side). Look for missing spokes. There are two types of true on a wheel-- radial (it is circular) and lateral (side to side), and many sellers only concern themselves with the latter. If you're riding a bike, and you feel a thump-thump in the wheel, and the tire is not flat, the wheel is likely out of radial true (the tire may not be properly seated, as well). If it wobbles, it's out of lateral true (or the hub bearings need to be tightened). If either one is far enough out, you may have to replace the wheel-- or at least have it trued by a competent mechanic. Again, down goes the price in that case.

Like frame tubing, there are so many makes and grades of rim and hub that I won't go into them here. In general alloy is better than steel. If a bike has steel rims (if you're in doubt, a magnet can tell you), it is not going to brake well in wet conditions. Maybe not at all. They're also heavy and can slow you down, and are usually the mark of a lower end bike. If someone is trying to charge you more than $150 for a bike with steel rims, my advice is to walk off. Even 150$ is a stretch.

This list is not meant to be complete. It is meant to help you assess a bike prior to purchase. Most CL sellers are honest, and may not know the bike's faults. In buying a bike here, you're on your own (unless you have a trusted friend who happens to know a great deal about bikes). In fact, if you have such a friend, take him or her along on a buying expedition. Bribe them with lunch or something.

If you think something is missing from this post, or something is insufficently clear, you can contact me via the email above. I won't, in all likelihood, reply, but I may edit or change the post. I'm particularly interested in simple methods to spot potential problems. There are certainly some problems with old bikes I could not cover here; I've tried to make sure the tools I recommended are easily available to the casual bike buyer. I believe they are metric allen keys, a piece of string, a ruler, and a magnet. An adjustable wrench would be good as well; some bikes don't use allen bolts for the stem and the seat post bolt.

If you'd like to repost this or save it, go ahead. Print it out, take it with you to a buy if you want to. If you want to put on another Craigslist, please, go ahead, but email me that you're doing it. I might not reply. I am interested in the viral nature of things, however, and for those of you likewise interested, this post started on the Richmond Virginia Craigslist.

Good luck,
Thanks! Pogue

Zaphod Beeblebrox 06-12-09 10:26 AM

Tl; DR.


or at least I can imagine that would be the response on CL.

Poguemahone 06-12-09 10:32 AM


Originally Posted by CravenMoarhead (Post 9089733)
Tl; DR.


or at least I can imagine that would be the response on CL.

Quite possible, and it may not really be a good fit there. But I think this info should have a home-- it'd avoid a lot of little hidden problems for some buyers.

Or I could be delusional, too long around Peugeots does that.

brockd15 06-12-09 10:32 AM

I didn't get past the first few lines, but I'm sure it would be helpful to some.

That being said, if you do post it on CL, PLEASE do it in the forum instead of as an ad. It gets real old seeing "ads" with people giving advice, bickering about someone selling a bike, proclaiming that flipping is an evil practice, prices are insane, etc, etc.

The ad section should be just that, posts from people selling bikes (and occasionaly wtb/wtt ads).

dannyg1 06-12-09 10:46 AM

Raleigh USA bikes were typically Japan-made.

Swiss and French threaded frames, BB's and headsets are fairly common still, just harder to find brand new. 'Obsolete' is far too strong a word here. 'Unusual' is probably more apt.

It's also unusual to see CLister's helping other CLister's. Nice thing you're doing.

Poguemahone 06-12-09 11:02 AM

3 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by brockd15 (Post 9089774)
I didn't get past the first few lines, but I'm sure it would be helpful to some.

That being said, if you do post it on CL, PLEASE do it in the forum instead of as an ad. It gets real old seeing "ads" with people giving advice, bickering about someone selling a bike, proclaiming that flipping is an evil practice, prices are insane, etc, etc.

The ad section should be just that, posts from people selling bikes (and occasionaly wtb/wtt ads).

Very true. I've been debating even the format of the thing-- I was thinking it might work best as some sort of web page, with a series of images you could click through showing the process, rather than a CL post.

I also tried to keep out reference to evil sellers, etc..

So far, TL/DR seems an issue.

Below are some images from another project I've been working on for awhile. Something similar, in a graphic step by step form might be better. Thoughts?

Poguemahone 06-12-09 11:16 AM


Originally Posted by dannyg1 (Post 9089855)
Raleigh USA bikes were typically Japan-made.

Swiss and French threaded frames, BB's and headsets are fairly common still, just harder to find brand new. 'Obsolete' is far too strong a word here. 'Unusual' is probably more apt.

It's also unusual to see CLister's helping other CLister's. Nice thing you're doing.

These are good observations/corrections. I would say that Swiss BBs are extremely hard to find, however, and any relative newbie would have a rough time with them.

In terms of the help, I think striving for accesability is important.

I don't know again if CL is the proper place, although it is a place where a lot of potential buyers lurk and want to buy stuff, so exposure may be greater. But I think I'm contemplating more a "buy a bike" kind of help, and don't know where that should be. Given the sales specific nature of CL, it would probably be inappropriate to post it there.

Tigerprawn 06-12-09 11:21 AM

I think it's a good idea and even if you end up helping only a few who read the guide it'd be worth it.

As for the drawings/diagrams. Did you draw those? I really like them and I love diagrams like that. I feel like I need those so I can hang up... Maybe I'm just being weird, but I really like them :thumb:

Poguemahone 06-12-09 11:38 AM


Originally Posted by Tigerprawn (Post 9090132)
I think it's a good idea and even if you end up helping only a few who read the guide it'd be worth it.

As for the drawings/diagrams. Did you draw those? I really like them and I love diagrams like that. I feel like I need those so I can hang up... Maybe I'm just being weird, but I really like them :thumb:

Thank you; yes, those are my drawings. I've about 250 of them right now; they're for a project I work on in my spare time-- a graphic how-to to bike repair I'd like to make into a web page eventual... the problem is, I keep getting sidetracked on it. Working on headsets? I start that, then decide I better show the reader how to remove a stuck stem. It's sprawling, far more so then when I envisoned it. That, alas, is the nature of problem solving.

Some of it could obviously be re-used for the buyer guide; there's a completed section on checking headset adjustment, for example.

I do think a text version isn't useless, however, as it could be printed out. Do people still do that?

Tigerprawn 06-12-09 11:50 AM

I think a printed version maybe spiral bound or something would be fantastic and I'd go out on a limb and say I would pay for a copy 100% if the illustrations are like the ones you've shown.

I recently bought Zinn's (which everyone has had for years I'm sure) and the reason I love it so much is the illustrations. I just wish there were more. I really hope you keep us updated on the progress of your project. Seems like a lot of work, but 250 pages deep you just gotta keep going right? If you do decide to transform the project into a printed piece let me know :).

I can already envision a bound book (leather?!?) with all your illustrations printed out. It'd be something very cool to keep in my living room and just have people flip through. Ok, getting ahead of myself. Great work nonetheless! :)

Zaphod Beeblebrox 06-12-09 12:58 PM

I agree fully, those Bicycle Sketches are awesome.

I would frame and hang a couple up as well.

I would really love to see some more exploded diagrams, those are way cool when hand drawn.

RobbieTunes 06-12-09 06:24 PM

I read the whole thing. (Sometimes, I even read whole books.)
Now that my eyes have stopped bleeding, I concur wholeheartedly.
You should title it: 5 minutes with Poguemahone, if you have the time, it's worth it.
CL will likely not leave it up.

They took Amani576's list of suggestions right away.

I'd buy bike art like that if I saw it around. I'm dead serious.

Bike posters were some of the coolest art from the 60's and 70's.
Mostly in Europe.
Velodrome ads, stuff like that.

Poguemahone 06-12-09 08:28 PM

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Well, I've done plenty of exploded views. I'm not sure they're the best for this project, though. The one problem with doing it in cartoon format is it'll take awhile. I wrote the above in less than an hour; can't do the drawings quite that fast. I think I may knock out some drawings this weekend on the buyer's guide, though. The more I think about it, the less sense posting it on CL makes to me. My thinking:
1) It'll get flagged.
2) It'll get warped in the reposting, assuming other posters do it.
3) I'd have to repost it constantly.
4) You'd never reach the entire target audience.
5) It really isn't the proper place.

The advantages to it as a stand alone are;
1) Don't have to constantly repost.
2) Control over content.
3) Ability to use graphics more and control the layout.

Disadvantages are less potential exposure; I see it as a teaching tool. More exposure equals more knowledge out there. Much as I enjoyed the recent list for CL sellers that was floating around here, it was a bit arch.

Exploded views, huh? I've never sold originals, don't know if I will, but maybe I'll look into some prints. Wonder what they'd cost.

I'll post some sketches/cartoons here for the buyer's guide in the next week.

Thanks for the feedback so far. I knew posting this here would stir my brain a bit. Of course, as is the norm with me, it made the project larger.

-holiday76 06-12-09 08:45 PM

awesome stuff. Please add a water mark or something on the jpg's of your drawings before people start stealing them. You deserve credit for them and you're offering them to the public domain by posting them here.

Also, if you end up needing help with the web aspect of your project I'd be glad to help. I'm a web developer as my full time job. More management than coding these days, but I still know what I'm doing:)

In the meantime you could put a PDF together of your project so it's still available for use online.

Awesome stuff, great job and great idea.

Poguemahone 06-12-09 08:55 PM


Originally Posted by -holiday76 (Post 9093038)
awesome stuff. Please add a water mark or something on the jpg's of your drawings before people start stealing them. You deserve credit for them and you're offering them to the public domain by posting them here.

Also, if you end up needing help with the web aspect of your project I'd be glad to help. I'm a web developer as my full time job. More management than coding these days, but I still know what I'm doing:)

In the meantime you could put a PDF together of your project so it's still available for use online.

Awesome stuff, great job and great idea.

Yah, a watermark is a great idea. I'll see if I can figure it out, believe it or not, I'm a noob at graphics programs. Never liked the computer for work, I still use sable hair brushes and india ink. The pics are pretty bad, as well, they're shot at low res on a digital camera.

I've posted a few unconnected drawings so far. I will try to watermark the future ones.

Tigerprawn 06-12-09 09:36 PM

Although originals would be awesome I'd happily settle for prints that I could frame and put up on the wall

banjo_mole 06-13-09 01:13 AM

I would frame and hang the cottered crankset picture on the wall.

redbarnlane 06-13-09 05:05 AM

Photos, particularly of damaged frames and the like, would help. Not a lot of noobs are going to benefit from a lot of text on this, but a photo of a good frame next to a bent frame would make the point.

Mike

yepyep 06-13-09 07:11 AM

Pogue! Dude! Find a publisher now! Seriously! All of these exclamation marks! Are for a reason!
I would hang every one of those on my wall. Hell, even t-shirts would be rad.

stronglight 06-13-09 08:46 AM

You would be doing a wonderful service if only it would educate the average buyer how to correctly describe a rather basic part of a bike. I mean really basic features like: Head tube, headset, fork, steering tube, fork crown, stem... It is painful to read eBay or CL ads describing: "that thing what turns the bike at the front end got some rust..."

Illustrations are great for people looking for quick data, and yours would be perfect! - Very Nice! :thumb:

For simple bicycle repair or maintenance, was there ever a "Complete Idiot's Guide to..." or a "... For Dummy's" - like there were the series of books for VW Beetles, etc. during the 1970s. If not, one is definitely overdue!

Poguemahone 06-13-09 05:21 PM

Well, I spent the day installing a Tubus rack on my 84 Trek 720 tourer and fixing up the little Celeste Bianchi I found for my GF/SO. And sleeping, and riding to yard sales.

I think the above points about showing damaged frames is one of the keys about this guide, and have decided to start with frame assesment.

I'm going to look into some prints over the next few weeks. My summer schedule is insane, so I dunno how fast I can get to it. I may try cafe press for some Ts and coffee cups (I have a number of tool drawings that would do well, I think).

I think I need to buy a scanner.

Stronglight, the closest books to what I'm trying to do would be Tom Cuthbertson's (speeling?) Anybody's Bike Book and obviously, Zinn, which has some really nice drawings. I've had the road one for awhile and recently picked up the MTB book at a thrift for a dollar. Both are worth having.

Given the current state of the publishing, newspaper/magazine and comic book industries (I've worked in two of them), I've been leaning towards the web. I think I'd like the info to be free, with perhaps the option of buying a book or shirt.


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