purevl

You got it mixed up.

Miura explained, twice, that the bars on the bike are reproductions of a pre-WWII style handlebar popularized by Major Taylor. Which is why he feels that they don't suit the bike, because they are too old fashioned for the rest of the build.

BOBSONATOR

sorry not to contribute to your search,

but that bicycle is absolutely gorgeous!!

froze

AH HA!! Your right, and that just proves another of my points. What the hell am I talking about you scream. My point about his ability to write being Turkish better then most Americans I've read on the forums can write, and now I can't read english better then he writes it!!! So Miura is doing an outstanding job with his english and I'm doing a poorer job of it.

Miura

Today I removed the seatpost to check the tube diameter with a caliper. I removed the post by just pulling upwards, easily, no scratches at all...

I understood my mistake when I used the caliper and measured 26.8mm. The easy-to-remove post was 27.0mm.

Anyway, it is 27.2 mm after learning how to hold a caliper right!

froze

Though you may not have been amused by your mistake you should be! Why? because you learned something your never going to forget.

Miura

You bet I've enjoyed it

Latest update for tube measurements:
28.6 Seat Tube Outer Diameter
27.2 Seat Tube Inner Diameter
28.6 Down Tube Outer Diameter
25.6 Top Tube Outer Diameter

The bike is painted with:
1 layer of base coat
2 layers of paint
1 layer of clearcoat

Seat tube has a 0.7mm thickness before the butted area (with 4 layers of paint job)

I have no idea how many microns the paint thickness is. Now, any ideas what tubing this might be?

Miura

This is a CPR message to my thread which was drowned in the previous pages

Hilarystone

The fact that the frame weighs less than 1700g means that it is not built from 531, SL, SLX, SP, SPX, Cromor etc - all those tubesets make for frames nearer 2000g. Take a look up the fork steerer tube from under the fork crown; does it have spiral reinforcements, straight spline reinforcements or nothing at all? This may help to narrow down the tube manufacturer. All Columbus fork steerers have spiral reinforcements, Ishiwata tubing generally but not always straight spline reinforcements. Reynolds has none, likewise Tange.

Please also measure the diameter of the fork blades, seatstays and a close-up pic of the chainstays may also help. The different tubing makers use different sizes and profiles...

Whatever the tubing manufacturer it is one of the lighter tubesets - Reynolds 753 or 531SL, 653 or 531Pro, Columbus KL, PL, Ishiwata 017...

Picchio Special

Sometimes, the connection between seatpost diameter and tubing type is over-codified and folks get hung up on it. Seatposts are reamed after the frame is constructed, and if this step is neglected, or done differently, the size seatpost the frame will take can easily be smaller than would otherwise be the case.

Miura

I'll have to borrow a caliper again, the one I've pruchased fom eBay won't be arriving that easy

There are no spiral or straight spline reinforcements in the fork crown. It has survived this many years on the road, I guess it's not that bad to have no reinforcements, right?

Hilarystone

Spiral or spline reinforcements are ways in which some tubing manufacturers strengthen the steerer; Reynolds and a number of others simply make the tube thicker (butted) at the fork crown end of the steerer... In my opinion this is actually the better method...

T-Mar

I didn't see anything where 1700g was mentioned. I must have missed this. Anyways, this must mean that the frame's apart. If so, the steerer tube should be stamped with the manufacturer's identity if it's Columbus, Tange or Ishiwata. BTW, not all Columbus steerer tubes have the helical reinforcements, though most do. As for Tange, I believe the steerers on the Prestige sets have spline reinforcements.

Hilarystone

Miura states that the frame weighs 1677g in his opening question... And that the fork weighs 685g which is also on the light side of average.... Steerers are not always stamped - some Ishiwata steerers are not stamped or splined... Splined and helical steerer reinforcements can help to point to a tubing manufacturer... but are not a definite guide as some builders will mix tubes from different sets and manufacturers, however it can be a start.

Miura

After a long while, here are the fork and stay tubing diameters:

Fork:
Tickest area is 28.25 x 20.00 mm

Chainstay:
Tickest area (bridge weld) is 26.30 x 21.15 mm (oval)
Dropout area is 14.00 mm OD (round)

Seatstay:
16.00 mm OD to 14.00 mm OD (round)

Sounds like Reynolds?

froze

Neil Shankland, as far as I ever knew, built bikes using nothing but Reynolds, and thats why my original post suggested it was Reynolds. But then later the Cinelli stamping on the bottom bracket came into view via your pic and confused me thinking then it had to be Columbus. Now with those sizes you measured I'm leaning back toward Reynolds. Reynolds would have been better tubing for track use vs using Columbus back then, and perhaps Neil knew this, so probably the Cinelli marking was due to Neil using Cinelli lugs. But again this is all conjecture.

Miura

Thanks for the info Froze, I've been looking at the tubing size charts, I believe it's made of lightweight Reynolds. Hilarystone quoted some models, but I can't make sure which of them is the right one.

froze

Neil liked the Reynolds 653, but those demensions are closer to 531 probably because this bike was made before 653 which Neil made a lot of bikes out of because he liked the 653 tubeset. 531 had several different subtypes, P, C, SC, SL, ST. The SL was the track tube set.

Hilarystone

Reynolds tubing was always available in a variety of wall thicknesses but in 1975/6 they launched a thin walled version of 531 called 531SL at the same time as launching 753, this featured 0.7/0.5mm butted top and seat tubes with a 0.8/0.5mm down tube. Seat and chain stays also used thinner walled tubing 0.5mm and 0.6mm respectively.
531 Pro was a new name for 531SL in 1983 - there were slight differences between 531SL and Pro but thery were minor.
653 was launched around 1988 and used enhanced strength main tubes with similar wall thicknesses but improved reliability to 531Pro. Seat and chainstays were 753 heat treated steel and should be silver brazed but were often not – these can be a weak point on 653 frames.
753 was offered in many different versions. Until 1983 753 was only offered in metric sized tubes (26mm top tube, 28mm down and seat tubes). These also had very thin wall thicknesses. Later two main versions were developed 753T (for the track with thinner walls) and 753R (for the road with similar wall thicknesses to 531Pro and 653). Special versions were also produced for MTBs and Tony Oliver had Reynolds make versions for tandems and touring bikes.
531ST was introduced I think around 1983 - it was essentially a set of 531 tubes with heavier duty main tubes and fork blades. 531C was a renaming of the standard 531 tube set. I don't think ther was a 531SC.

I think this frame could be built from 531Pro or 531SL judging by its weight...

froze

Great info. The SL became the standard track frame when it was introduced until the 653 caught on and Neil realized this too.

The CS (I accidently reverse this when I said SC earlier) was a tube set called the Club Sport. Trek made bikes of this tubeset, but on the 660 series changed the standard CS which just had the main tubes butted and not the stays or forks to include the stays and forks. That's why my Trek 660 Reynolds sticker says 531cs double butted main, stays and forks.

Hilarystone

Yes 531CS - I had forgotten that set and I cannot remember how it differed... But it is a misnomer to think that any stays are butted they are not - though they are tapered and the same applies to fork blades...

froze

Actually your wrong about the misnomer. Your getting your infor off some web site that shows a bunch of stickers then try to act intellegent about what your talking about, problem with those type of web sites is they never have all the information.

You see Trek specially ordered a tubeset from Reynolds for 531cs for the 660 series but wanted butted forks and stays, which they ande other manufactures could request since they were hand building them. And that's why my sticker from Reynolds states the following..."butted tubes, forks and stays". That's not to say that tapered, forks and stays were bad, the Pro series used them, but the butted were less flexy then the lighter tapered.

I test rode a 760 which was only about 1/2 pound lighter the the 660 and I could get the bottom bracket to flex enough to rub the chain rings against both sides of the front derailler, but I could not do that on the 660, and since I was riding mostly mountains I got the 660 and dealer AND the Trek rep all agreed. And the Trek Rep even explained about the unique Reynold sticker wording at the time I purchased the frame...which frankly I didn't really care as long as the thing didn't rub like the Pro. then about 5 years later I ran into a Reynolds exec and he too recalled the Decal. He even said they made a special sticker for a French manufacture that only says Reynolds butted manin tubes, no mention of the forks or stays...why? Because Peugeot used a different manufacture for the stays and forks; no mention of that on the your web site either.

noglider 

Tell us.

Hilarystone

There are no such things as butted seatstays or chainstays despite what the decals say - I have 1980s Reynolds, Columbus, Ishiwata, Tange and Vitus catalogues here in front of me complete with all the tube specs. All seatstays and chainstays are plain gauge. Reynolds fork blades are butted (there is no such thing as a plain gauge Reynolds fork blade); all other tubing makers' fork blades are plain gauge. I would guess that the differences in the tubing decals relates to Reynolds attempting to be more accurate with the description of their tubing sets but the reference on the decals to butted tubes, blades and stays goes back to the 1930s and was never perfectly true - the top and down tubes were double butted, the seat tube was single butted, the fork blades and fork steerer were single butted and the head tube, seatstays and chainstays weere plain gauge... And most good quality steel cycle tubing was like that save for plain gauge fork blades. Seat tubes in particular did vary later from Ishiwata and Tange. And I don't have any catalogues from True Temper or Excell but I am sure they generally followed the same principles. Trying to butt small diameter tubes like seatstays or chainstays is very difficult, instead the manufacturers tapered the outside diameters to put the strength and/or stiffness where they thought it was needed together with the other design constraints such chainline.

froze

Interesting info Hilarystone, but then why would my Reynolds sticker say that, and why would the Reynolds exec say the same thing? the Trek marketing...well that's a different story since a marketing rep could say anything.

I had Ishiwata at one time and I recall that said triple butted main tubes but no reference to the stays or forks that I can remember anyway. I also had Columbus at one time and it too said butted main tubes but again no reference to the others either, but again that is also going back a long ways and my memory could be in error. But according to any LBS or bike manufacture rep I ever spoke to all said that the main tubes including all three main tubes, only the head tube wouldn't be due to the short size of that tube it wouldn't do anything for it. And even other Reynolds stickers said butted stays and forks.

So why I scream would they do that if it weren't true? And if that info is not true how do we know if any info on the sticker is correct? Again I scream WHY?

noglider 

It's ambiguous English on the sticker. It says "Guaranteed made with Reynolds 531 butted tubes, forks, and stays."

The butted is a modifier to tubes but not forks and stays. Oh, hilarystone says it modifies the forks, too.