Good small classic steel bikes?
#1
My other car is a bike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Wine Country, 1 hour north of San Francisco
Posts: 1,303
Bikes: Specialized Ruby
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Good small classic steel bikes?
I read in this forum recently that some classic and vintage bikes that are really, really nice in larger sizes may not be as nice in smaller sizes. I want to start looking for a nice old road bike in a 51. Advice or suggestions? Thanks in advance for your two cents!
__________________
Embrace diversity: hug a conservative.
Embrace diversity: hug a conservative.
#2
Banned.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 27,199
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 378 Post(s)
Liked 1,409 Times
in
909 Posts
There's a 51cm Centurion Lemans in the For Trade section, I think. He's looking for a rare bike he likely won't find, but he may want to sell the Lemans RS.
I think there are just fewer of them, that's all.
I think there are just fewer of them, that's all.
#3
Thrifty Bill
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Mountains of Western NC
Posts: 23,524
Bikes: 86 Katakura Silk, 87 Prologue X2, 88 Cimarron LE, 1975 Sekai 4000 Professional, 73 Paramount, plus more
Mentioned: 96 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1236 Post(s)
Liked 964 Times
in
628 Posts
The problem is they are rare/extremely hard to find. I have only found four decent small road bikes in the last year. All were OK bikes, but lower end bikes (cromoly Schwinn World Sport was one).
If you can find a higher end vintage bike in a small size, buy it, pay full market OR HIGHER if you have to, as you are not likely to find another one anytime soon. And if you do happen to get lucky and find more than one, then they are very easy to sell.
Almost everything I find is either a 21 inch, 23 inch or 24 inch frame. Anything larger or smaller is scarce. Small ones sell quick, big ones (larger than 24 inch) take a while.
Last edited by wrk101; 08-14-09 at 07:55 PM.
#4
My other car is a bike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Wine Country, 1 hour north of San Francisco
Posts: 1,303
Bikes: Specialized Ruby
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Thanks, RobbieTunes! I see you're a fan of the Centurions. I found the post and also see that you've already PM'd the poster. I'm in no hurry and just starting my research, but if you don't mind, I'll PM him(?) too.
__________________
Embrace diversity: hug a conservative.
Embrace diversity: hug a conservative.
#5
My other car is a bike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Wine Country, 1 hour north of San Francisco
Posts: 1,303
Bikes: Specialized Ruby
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
+1 They are every bit as nice.
The problem is they are rare/extremely hard to find. I have only found four decent small road bikes in the last year. All were OK bikes, but lower end bikes (cromoly Schwinn World Sport was one).
If you can find a higher end vintage bike in a small size, buy it, pay full market if you have to, as you are not likely to find another one anytime soon. And if you do, then they are very easy to sell.
Almost everything I find is either a 21 inch, 23 inch or 24 inch frame. Anything larger or smaller is scarce. Small ones sell quick, big ones take a while.
The problem is they are rare/extremely hard to find. I have only found four decent small road bikes in the last year. All were OK bikes, but lower end bikes (cromoly Schwinn World Sport was one).
If you can find a higher end vintage bike in a small size, buy it, pay full market if you have to, as you are not likely to find another one anytime soon. And if you do, then they are very easy to sell.
Almost everything I find is either a 21 inch, 23 inch or 24 inch frame. Anything larger or smaller is scarce. Small ones sell quick, big ones take a while.
__________________
Embrace diversity: hug a conservative.
Embrace diversity: hug a conservative.
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,045
Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
It's not just about availability. It's also about geometry - some manufacturers significantly altered their geometry in smaller sizes, in particular to avoid toe-clip overlap. Toe-clip overlap is a bete noir to folks who know little or nothing about racing bike handling. Some builders compromised the handling in smaller sizes; some didn't.
#7
My other car is a bike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Wine Country, 1 hour north of San Francisco
Posts: 1,303
Bikes: Specialized Ruby
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
It's not just about availability. It's also about geometry - some manufacturers significantly altered their geometry in smaller sizes, in particular to avoid toe-clip overlap. Toe-clip overlap is a bete noir to folks who know little or nothing about racing bike handling. Some builders compromised the handling in smaller sizes; some didn't.
__________________
Embrace diversity: hug a conservative.
Embrace diversity: hug a conservative.
#8
Veteran Racer
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ciudad de Vacas, Tejas
Posts: 11,757
Bikes: 32 frames + 80 wheels
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1331 Post(s)
Liked 764 Times
in
431 Posts
I don't think it has anything to do with countersteering, but toe to front wheel overlap when making sharp turns at very slow speeds. What manufacturers of small frames often do is make the head tube angle smaller to bring the front wheel forward while making the seat tube angle greater to bring the cranks back, thus increasing the distance between the cranks and front wheel. This also shortens the top tube, such that a short person does not require a super short stem. This is really not an issue on a touring bike, however, it matters on a racing bike because it makes the bike steer more slowly.
Last edited by TejanoTrackie; 08-15-09 at 07:23 PM.
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 16,874
Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1856 Post(s)
Liked 664 Times
in
506 Posts
TruF, what the range of sizes or characteristics that will work for you?
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,045
Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
In addition to the good information provided already, I'll add that some builders that provided a full range of seat tube sizes used a much more limited range of top tube sizes. It almost seemed as if they used the same top tube length regardless of the size of the bike. Some older Raleighs show this characteristic, if I recall correctly. Smaller riders without long torsos would not find a good fit. This tendency seems to have become less prevalent by the 80's as proportional geometry was widely adopted. So it depends on the era of the bike to some extent whether or not this is a potential issue.
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 16,874
Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1856 Post(s)
Liked 664 Times
in
506 Posts
I also have a Mondonico, similar size but different geometrically, that has radically different front geometry. Its handling is very acceptable IMO, but its also very different from this Masi. It has no overlap.
Basically the change is to move the front wheel out away from the bottom bracket. This is done using two adjustments, once the seat tube angle is set. Lengthen the top tube, and slacken (less vertical) the head tube angle. The most key dimension in the front end is trail, which depends on angle and on fork offset aka rake. If the angle is slackened, the rake is increased to get the same trail, so frame designers go for that. But other keys to comfort and handling, like weight distrubution between the tires and of the rider on the bike can be compromised. Terry Cycles used small wheels for small womens' bikes to resolve these conflicts.
#12
aka Tom Reingold
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,502
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Mentioned: 511 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7348 Post(s)
Liked 2,463 Times
in
1,433 Posts
Right, toe overlap is not that hard to deal with, but the makers avoid it anyway, which is a shame, though it's also understandable.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
#13
My other car is a bike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Wine Country, 1 hour north of San Francisco
Posts: 1,303
Bikes: Specialized Ruby
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Thanks everybody. Still gathering information before taking another plunge. This is very helpful.
Road Fan, I ride a Ruby Specialized in a 51. Fits me like a glove. Hard to translate the geometry of that bike to a classic ride because it has "compact" geometry. (And I'm not even sure what that means!) I had a computerized bike fitting done before getting my Ruby, and it suggests a 513 c-c seat tube and 521 c-c top tube. (I'm long-limbed with a short torso...)
Road Fan, I ride a Ruby Specialized in a 51. Fits me like a glove. Hard to translate the geometry of that bike to a classic ride because it has "compact" geometry. (And I'm not even sure what that means!) I had a computerized bike fitting done before getting my Ruby, and it suggests a 513 c-c seat tube and 521 c-c top tube. (I'm long-limbed with a short torso...)
__________________
Embrace diversity: hug a conservative.
Embrace diversity: hug a conservative.
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Yukon, Canada
Posts: 8,759
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 113 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 16 Times
in
14 Posts
Hey TruF, I have a 51cm GIOS professional from the early to mid 1980s... it's a beautiful machine but my girlfriend has no interest in road riding so I've decided to part with it. I can sell the frame set or the complete bike with a very very excellent condition first generation chorus group... Let me know if you are interested and I can provide more details.
__________________
1 Super Record bike, 1 Nuovo Record bike, 1 Pista, 1 Road, 1 Cyclocross/Allrounder, 1 MTB, 1 Touring, 1 Fixed gear
1 Super Record bike, 1 Nuovo Record bike, 1 Pista, 1 Road, 1 Cyclocross/Allrounder, 1 MTB, 1 Touring, 1 Fixed gear
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 16,874
Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1856 Post(s)
Liked 664 Times
in
506 Posts
Thanks everybody. Still gathering information before taking another plunge. This is very helpful.
Road Fan, I ride a Ruby Specialized in a 51. Fits me like a glove. Hard to translate the geometry of that bike to a classic ride because it has "compact" geometry. (And I'm not even sure what that means!) I had a computerized bike fitting done before getting my Ruby, and it suggests a 513 c-c seat tube and 521 c-c top tube. (I'm long-limbed with a short torso...)
Road Fan, I ride a Ruby Specialized in a 51. Fits me like a glove. Hard to translate the geometry of that bike to a classic ride because it has "compact" geometry. (And I'm not even sure what that means!) I had a computerized bike fitting done before getting my Ruby, and it suggests a 513 c-c seat tube and 521 c-c top tube. (I'm long-limbed with a short torso...)
I don't know if you're interested in a classic Masi, but mine might be your size and is on offer. We can talk more on PM or email if you like. Same for my Mondonico.
The Masi grew up in SoCal, and would be happier to live in the warm weather of his youth.