joe englert

ok. i know this is old stuff but after talking at some length with not only one of americas great bike frame builders but also a pretty darn good ex racer who knows more than i ever will about american cycling history, ive come to the conclusion that me ex-fifth grade teacher, bob tetzlaff was a great early american bike racer. in a previous post about tetzlaff, i got the feeling from several of our forums friends that he was mediocre at best. i think these collegues my not like him personally for some dumb things he did as a bicycle administrator in the early days and that might effect their judgment of him as a racer. well, this gentleman who is very very knowlegable told me tetzlaff was always the hero of the young 70s american want-to -be bike racers. this is long before lemond came in to the scene. mr. "d" told me that tetzlaff won many many races and was a fantastic rider. he did say that when tetzlaff went in to administration that he messed stuff up and became unpopular but as a bike racer this shouldnt take away from what he did.

repechage

Tetzlaff has enlarged his position in history over time.

He was dominant in Northern California racing for quite a while, did that make him good? or was the competition just not that strong? A friend hung with him at an early 60's Acton Road Race down in Southern California, placed just behind him. Got beat at the end as he got snookered, but he was young and a Novice class rider.

Tetzlaff, a legend in his own mind.

In the early 60's the competition in USA bicycle racing was thin, the pros of the previous generation were gone as were their performance standards. In the early 60's the total number of license holders in the US was 2 to 3,000. In 1975 is was 15,000.

Picchio Special

Joe, since your so adamant about this, how would you define "great?" Or "early?"
Long before Tetzlaff, there were US riders of international caliber, including during the "Golden Age" of American bicycle racing in the early 1900's. I don't think Tetzlaff fits the definition of "early" by most historical measures.
Then there's the question of "greatness." Tetzlaff seems to have been excellent when measured against his US competition. So if being in the US Cycling Hall of Fame automatically makes someone "great," then, well, Tetzlaff passes muster. I personally set the bar higher. For someone to have been "great" they would have to have succeeded and won against the very best in their field of endeavor, and done so consistently. By this measure, Tetzlaff comes up well short - as his Olympics results testify. Tetzlaff was a fine American cyclist during a time when America simply didn't produce any "great" male bicycle racers. That happened earlier, when guys like Major Taylor, Frank Kramer, Alf Goullet, Bobby Walthour Sr., and Art Zimmerman won against the best riders on the planet; and later, with the emergence of Greg Lemond. Those guys were great, and Bob Tetzlaff doesn't belong in the same sentence with any of them, IMO.
Of course, I wrote much of that previously, and it doesn't seem to have registered with you. My suggestion is that you therefore clarify your terms, or go and do some real research into US cycling history before rehashing this pet project of establishing Bob Tetzlaff's larger-than-local legend.

Picchio Special

Incidentally, Peter Nye wrote a pretty extensive book on the history of American bicycle racing from its beginnings to the LeMond era entited "Hearts of Lions." I know I mentioned it previously. It's fairly well regarded. My question to you, Joe, is: If Bob Tetzlaff was a "great early American bicycle racer" then why isn't he mentioned anywhere in this book?

joe englert

well, of course you have a very good point, but tetzlaff is mentioned in at least two books on early usa cycling i have seen. but no, as far as the great european cyclists are concerned, tetzlaff is not in their league, but in terms of sixties american cycling is concerned, he is great. the discussion i had with mr d confirmed this. tetzlaff was blowing away other american riders at the time and he was, in fact, an inspiration for the younger riders to get into racing.`it makes you wonder where american bike racing would be today if it wasnt for tetzlaff. ps is he in the cycling hall of fame? i gather from the comments he is? didnt know that.

dbakl

Don't know why, but dang, reading that name certainly rung a faint, distant bell from back in the 70s!

He musta done sumthin I can't remember now!

repechage

In the 70's Tetzlaff was an ABLofA (pre USCF) race official.

I think he was also the District Rep for Northern California at some point too.

repechage

If you did not believe what you were writing I would have to say surely you were joking.

embankmentlb

Old Mr.Tetzlaff must have rubbed someone wrong judging from the comments.

joe englert

well, i hope you know i respect your comments and knowlege very much, in fact i would not have brought this up again if it wasnt for the fact that i just spoke to mr. d who has eaten at the same table as the european great like hinault during the tour de france and he is a real cycle historian as well as one of americas foremost frame builders and he told me that he thought tetzlaff was in fact a great racer and was his hero when i began getting into bike racing himself-although i dont believe he himself was a very great racer.

Picchio Special

I once met Eddy Merckx and shortly thereafter witnessed him taking a Lambada lesson. I'm dead certain Eddy has no idea who Bob Tetzlaff is. Not that I don't respect Roland Della Santa's opinion - the word "great" means different things to different people. I remain convinced that Greg LeMond would still have flourished even had Bob Tetzlaff never existed (and I'm also betting LeMond's heros were the true "greats"). Look, I don't mean to denegrate Mr. Tetzlaff or his contribution to American cycling, but there are lots of guys who rode and won in obscurity between Walthour Sr. and LeMond. Go read up on Art Longsjo and then complain that Tetzlaff doesn't get his due. (My hero when I began to get into bike racing was Barry Free - ever since he passed me about 20 minutes into the state time trial championships not long after turning 60. Barry's awesome - but he ain't "great.")

repechage

Joe, I have had dinner and gone on training rides with Olympic, Foreign National and World Champions. Proximity to greatness just does not mean much to me. Fortunately I had open ears to listen to comments made and was skilled just enough to not embarrass myself.
Tetzlaff was a savvy competitor, a dominant regional rider in his day. Beyond that he did not rise to a sustained National or international level. And came to Southern California only when he had to. The racing calendar had many open weekends back then.

joe englert

ok. ok. i get the point. i think you will have to at least agree with me and put tetzlaff in the same category as a boyer, fred markham, jerry ash, davis phinny. now once you admit he fits with these racers you must admit that he also is a great american cyclist.

Picchio Special

Davis Phinney won two stages of the Tour de France and finished second in the points competition. Jacques Boyer finished 12th in the Tour De France. You have to be joking if you think I have to put Bob Tetzlaff in the same category with either of them.

joe englert

well, i think youl will agree that he is in their league, just in a different way. tetzlaff himsel told me that he personally was boyers teacher/trainer at one time. tetzlaff also told me he raced against merckx. by the way, lemond rode in tetzlaffs race known as the cats hill criterium.

Picchio Special

If by that you mean that, like them, he raced a bicycle only he was not nearly as good, well, then I agree with you. I guess in a way 6th place at the Pan Am games is the same as performing well in the world's most competitive and difficult bike race. Works well for me, since I have won some journalism awards, which I guess puts me in the same league with all the Pulitzer Prize winners.

So did a lot of guys. Most of them are long forgotten.

embankmentlb

Folks like J. Boyer, or even George Mount, who raced in europe, are in a very different league than someone who only raced in Northern Cal. I don't care if they won every race in the state.
I have Velo-News from the late 70's. Boyer was a force in his day. Much of his racing was in Italy at a time when Italians would cheat, lie & steal rather than see an American win a race. He paved some rough trails! I put him in the same league as a Lemond, Armstrong or Hampsten!

repechage

"Tetzlaff himself told me" (spelling corrected a bit) a case of tooting one's own horn as otherwise history does not bother to note it as it was not significant.

I won't bother to look it up, let's say Tetzlaff rode the '64 Olympic race in Tokyo or '60 in Rome. Merckx was an amateur at some point there, so yes he would have raced against him most likely. Now should he have bothered?
The USA racers back then were NOT competitive, it is just a fact.

repechage

You have broad categories.

From influential and recognized Northern California racers, I would place Jack Disney well ahead of Tetzlaff and Jack is not in the same category as the other racers mentioned. Jack was a savvy racer too, who won with creative tactics instead of ultimate performance often, a sign of a good racer. The great don't need the creative tactics on a habitual level, they just break the legs and will of their competitors.

embankmentlb

Apparently Mr.T. organized a race offering $10k in prizes for first place. He builds a wood table in his garage & claims it to be worth the $10k he pays himself. He gives the ba$t@rd table to one of the Stetina brothers for winning the race. Stetina trades the $10k table for enough gas money to get home. I see now why Mr. T. is held in such high regard.

repechage

I forgot that one, a masterstroke of how the game was played back then.

I missed an ebay auction for all of the Competitive Cycling newspapers from 1973 through 1976, those would have been a treasure trove of chronicles of Cycling politics and scandal from the day.
We will neglect that once the publisher, McFadden got on the USCF Board he kind of became like those he pursued when he was on the outside earlier.

joe englert

alright . i give up. picchio and repecage.. i respect you two too much to argue with you. im sure you are right about tetzlaff not being the greatest around but i thought that the discussion i had with della santa might shed some new light on tetzlaff and, perhaps make him better appreciated by cycling historians. tetzlaff did tell me,that horton -the guy behind the golden years of cycling book was going to interview him and maybe write a book about him, or something like that.

repechage

Its Brett Horton. Mr. Horton may interview him. He also does a good job of documentation, therefore I don't think a book will result.

Consider the fragile ego that has to proclaim, "Mr. X is going to interview me and write a book about me"
You now make me feel sorry for the guy.