Originally Posted by Batman_3000 (Post 9690477)

... no harm was meant. But such is the way of the written word without facial/body language/context to convey the subtler aspects of language.

Anyway, I still can't agree with the definition of a Mixte as pointed out to me in the words of Sheldon Brown, a great and much missed man. Three tubes on the rear triangle of which one comes from the headube (doubled) and is "wrapped" around the ST and prolonged to the rear DO, well I have seen many stepthroughs with that build. How about that definition but with specification that the steerer tube to rear DO tub(s) be straight, not "more or less straight" or whatever SB's definition was.

Anyway, again, no offence meant, and anybody can ride, like, admire, collect what they want. I do still stand by the fact that in France, Mixtes were considered and sold as women's bikes. And I'd admit that in a few years time when my legs get too stiff to lift, I'll go for a mixte.

Originally Posted by Veloria (Post 9698619)

See, this is interesting. People today tend to equate the mixte with a city bike or a cruiser, but the typical mixte frame geometry is actually that of a road bike, in the sense that it has very steep seat tube and head tube angles. At least the 1970s-80s Motobecane mixtes were definitely meant as road bikes and touring bikes; they were direct parallels to the diamond frame models. I always thought the load capacity was there for touring and not for transport. I would be very interested to know the head&seat tube angles of the really early models, like the 1947 mixte from Rene Herse.

Originally Posted by irwin7638 (Post 9699368)

It would be interesting to see the geometry of the French Mixte's from the 30's and 40's. To my knowledge all of them sold from the 70's until recently were marketed as women's road bikes. The Raliegh I am working on was exactly the same frame as the men's Super Course except for the twin tubes extending to the dropouts.

Originally Posted by badmother (Post 9700637)

Pix?

Originally Posted by badmother (Post 9690354)

Edit: About steptrough frames and skirts. Did some thinking and decided I think it is not just a "skirt" thing, some women used (big baggy) trousers one hundred years ago riding bikes, and riding a bike in a skirt is not THAT difficult, and why not a steptrough frame for men? My son call normal mens bikes for "nutcrackers". Should be a better reason to avoid mens bikes than a skirt is. I think it is mainly a modesty thing, remember how women was made to ride horses with both legs on one side? Did you try that? I think there was a lot of rules that we forgot about, and I think riding a mans bike then was far worse than a man wearing a dress in public today (in some areas nobody would look twice:D). The bikes was quite a big step forward on the way to womens liberation. Imagine all the damage that could have been done if they did not put plenty restrictions on it ;). Readng about bike riding one hundred yrs ago a lot of peopel tryed to say "a proper woman do not ride a bike", about how they must avoid at any price to start sweating and so on.

Originally Posted by irwin7638 (Post 9703577)

So, the design was clearly intended for use by a "mixture"of men and women, just became marketed in the US as a womens design because of the similarity to other "step-through" frames.

Originally Posted by Jasmijo (Post 9671936)

Yes.

"A style of lady's frame in which the "top tube" consists of a pair of small diameter tubes running more-or-less straight from the upper head lug, past the seat tube, and on to the rear fork ends. A mixte frame thus has 3 sets of rear stays, instead of the usual two. A variant on the mixte uses a single, full sized top tube running from the upper head tube to the seat tube, but retains the middle set of stays. A lady's type bike that lacks the middle pair of stays is not a mixte."
-Sheldon Brown

Originally Posted by Batman_3000 (Post 9704149)

Well, here's a bike which has a double top tube running not quite to the rear drop out. It has three tubes on the rear "triangle".
...

Originally Posted by Veloria (Post 9704240)

Batman - Those are stunning bikes. Are they yours? The top one especially pulls at my heart strings. Who are the manufacturers, are there any identifying marks?

That top one with the curved twin stays is interesting. I see a lot of bicycles with this construction in the EU (see here for some photos of Austrian ones I have spotted), but zero in the US.

Originally Posted by Kommisar89 (Post 9704094)

I noticed that the French Peugeot catalog collection is missing the years 1937 - 1949, roughly the war years plus a bit. .

Originally Posted by irwin7638 (Post 9704412)

It would be nice to get some documentation from that period. That seems to be when they appeared. Even checking the Classic Rendevous site the earliest shown was the Herse which was made post-war and all since then were considered "women's" touring machines.

Originally Posted by Kommisar89 (Post 9704671)

I'm thinking the French were a bit busy from 1940 - 1945 so we shouldn't expect much in the way of documentation from that period. Not sure how quickly they recovered in the '46 - '49 timeframe. Maybe Batman can help us out there with some historical perspective.

Originally Posted by Batman_3000 (Post 9704316)

The bluish or greenish one is an Alcyon dating just pre-war. The design had been around for a while.
...

Originally Posted by Batman_3000 (Post 9704316)

Anyway, here is something dragged out of the "throw them out" pile just 5 minutes ago to picture specifically for this thread. Twin top tubes running around and attached to the seat tube, and prolonging to the rear dropout. A bit confusing, isn't it :D

Originally Posted by Veloria (Post 9704805)

Pre-war? Is that one of the early Simplex derailleurs then, or have you since replaced it with something newer?



Are you teasing me, or will you really throw it out? : (

Originally Posted by Batman_3000 (Post 9704149)

Well, here's a bike which has a double top tube running not quite to the rear drop out. It has three tubes on the rear "triangle". It isn't a mixte. Then here is one of those awful mass produced alloy things, the TT runs (as per Sheldon Brown's definition or quote) from steerer tube to seat tube, and there are three tubes on the back. That, by the SB definition would make it a mixte. But it is most definitely not.

Originally Posted by Batman_3000 (Post 9704149)

Originally Posted by Veloria (Post 9705619)

Thanks. I have a Motobecane mixte that is from the same era as that Peugeot in your link.
But I can't believe that you have beautiful 1930s and '40s bicycles lying around destined for the trash!
There are a lot of vintage French road bikes where I live, including mixtes - but not as old as yours.
This is my bicycle below, "Marianne".

http://queenmargot.com/velovelo/marianne_new1.jpg

Not even going to go there re the "American ladies" and "harassment" comment.
Assumptions, assumptions!

Originally Posted by Frits B (Post 9704187)

Almost exact copies of the Locomotief unisex frame as shown by bionicycle in post #24 are still built today by Dutch manufacturer Azor in Hoogeveen and German manufacturer Utopia Velo in Saarbrücken. Websites www.azor.nl and www.utopia-velo.de respectively. The Azor site is very amateurish but these bikes are sold by WorkCycles in Amsterdam (www.workcycles.nl) who provide English text. The Azor bikes are heavy which helps in a flat country like Holland, the Utopias are a third lighter as Germany has hills and mountains where less weight is better. On the other hand, the Utopias cost twice as much as the Azors. Both are made by people who are cyclists first and foremost.