thinking about upgrading - what will I gain for my $$?
 

I've built up 4-5 bikes over the past year or so. I figure that since I'm probably gonna be riding for the long-haul, I might as well invest some serious money in a nice ride. I commute by bike and frequently go on leisurely rides (around 40km). Right now my main bike is a Peugeot U0-8 that has most of the parts from a U0-12 that was too small for me. I have it tuned to a T and it's riding really nicely right now. I like the relatively slack geometry - makes a springy, comfy ride.

As far as the upgrade is concerned:

I want to build it up myself from the frame up. I've been thinking about buying a vintage steel frame (70's-80's). However, since I don't really have the means to do a proper, historically accurate restoration, is it stupid to spend $400-700 on a vintage frame (for example: http://www.bikingthings.com/bicycles.html)? Would it be more worth it to put that money into a new frame? I really like vintage frames; the geometry, lugwork, welding give them a beauty that doesn't really hold up in newer bikes.

Also, besides weight, what would I really gain? I'm sure there's a discernible difference but as far as riding the bike is concerned, what benefits would a bike in the price range I stated earlier give me over my U08?

You seem suited to take on the project, you already did the others. French bikes aren't the easiest, I guess you hadn't enountered some problems they're know for.
I didn't read the link, read most of what you wrote, well read it all but will only address some. Fond of vintage my self, I totally agree with the correct this, the proper vintage that, too much. Too much money and trouble in many (most) cases.
U08's like others are very different than Italian, English and Japanese bikes. A Japan built bike might not be the most rewarding, it'll be the simplest and perhaps the more durable choice, they're also under-priced. That too is just beginning to change.
400-700 will buy you alot of used frame. Building it up can double that amount even if used parts are chosen. A new frame other than a cheap Al. one or just just a few chromoly steel ones can cost 400 or more, not many are even that low.
Any frame other than yours now will be WAY different; "good, bad not indifferent"
Funny that complete bikes actually "cost less" all things considered. To buy a used frame for 100 even then to gather used parts & wheels, W/shiping 200 more; it's hardly worth the effort and I'm being conservative here.
A complete bike is better, you can det. it's straight, rideable and if it has some parts you like, keep them. All that's not to your liking, proceed from there.
The only compelling reason to start from scratch is if you can do it no other way. Choose a bike or frame with 700 wheels, most will have chromoly tubing. Make sure that it's equipt with the shifters you like. Bikes with brifters(br.lev.shfts) start at about 250 used, depending on where you live or shipping added (70-100). Others can be found for 150 or so. 27" wheeled bikes can cost 50. Many 27" wheel bikes won't give you a rewarding ride and statistically most are HI-Tens. Steel.
Your urge to "do" a bike needn't include from scratch, I've made that "mistake" pleny of times. New is another story. Check out the Surly Pacer or Long Haul Trucker.
That's a start.

Just the other day, I saw someone offering up a '74 Raleigh Professional frame/fork/headset with non-original paint for $130.00. There are deals out there if you're willing to accept cosmetic compromises.

If you close your eyes when you ride, you won't be able to tell the difference (until you crash and need another one). :p

I think that to give a proper answer, the manner of use of this bike (commuting, touring, weekend riding, racing, rainy day bike, winter commuting etc) as well as what your current bike's shortcomings are needed to be known...

We also need to know what size your looking for so we can make suggestions.
-Gene-

If your looking to build something up from a frameset you cant beat the mid to late 80's Schwinn's with the Tenax tubing (Panasonic built) or the 3 tube Columbus SL frames built in the U.S. Other companies with very economical steel framesets are Trek, Peugeot (late 80's are British threading) and any of the Japanese makers. Like Japanese cars most people think Japanese bikes lack 'soul' and I'd have to agree. A word of caution in regards to the Panasonic Schwinns is that they use headset built to JIS spec which means 30.0mm headtube cups.

Italian framesets will run a little more than those previously mentioned, decent frames with good paint and decals constructed with Columbus or Reynolds tubing start in the $250 range with lesser examples (bad paint bad decals or rusty chrome) bringing as little as $100. 'Marque' names have the potential on running considerably higher.

Component wise you'll be able to build a Shimano 105 bike for ~$150 w/ wheels and a 600 Ultegra bike for ~$200 w/ wheels. Add ~$100 for STI levers. To achieve theses price points you'll need to savy and patient with your purchases. A 7400 series Dura Ace build could get pricey with anything higher up in the series like 7402/3 or 7410 being considerably more.

If you choose to go the Italian route you should be able to build something up with Victory/Triomphe for $150. An Athena/Chorus build will run a little more. Nuovo/Super Record, Record and C-Record could/will be prohibitivly expensive.

Unless you have a requirement that requires a frame with odd measurements, I think you would be better off with a mid to late 80s frame. I'm still amazed at how nice some of the mid-level, Tange 1 and Tange 2 frames are from that era.

IMO you are always better off moneywise to buy a complete bike unless you already have the parts to build a frame up. All the parts really start to add up. You should be able to buy a really nice complete vintage bike for $400 or less.

+1 Buy a sweet Japanese bike from the 80s, one with a top tier frame. You should be able to find one in the $200 to $250 range (market price). Or find a mid to late 80s steel Trek, same price range. They really made some nice bikes.

Either of these choices will give you a bike with standard sizing, easily upgradable at any time in the future.

And the harder you look, the better the deal you will find.

Thanks everyone this is really helpful; putting things into perspective nicely.

EJuste, this bike will be used for commuting, touring, weekend riding etc. Basically everything except racing. I don't need the frame that will let me go the fastest. I like to keep nice things nice so I have other bikes for rain, snow, bike polo.

Amani, I'm looking for something around 56 cm.

I've kinda realized that my initial price range is probably higher than necessary.. It seems like I could put together an entire bike for around that price or even less.

I check craigslist practically on the hour.. I'm bound to strike gold one of these days. I guess I'll just keep on looking and be patient.

+1000

If you are shopping on C/L, consider looking beyond just your local market. I peruse all of the C/L cities within 150 miles of where I live. I also look at C/Ls in many cities if I am traveling. I got a couple of really nice bikes on a road trip to Richmond, VA last year.

Do you have friends in another market? Look at those cities as well and have them pick the bike up for you.

The more aggressive you become in the search, the quicker you will find one.

One great part of searching for one of the Japanese brands, is that there were so many good brands out there: Miyata, Centurion, Univega, Lotus, Panasonic, Bridgestone, Fuji, Nishiki, the list goes on and on. Don't lock into a single brand or model.

Miamijim, the only parts I've ever really bought have been used or harvested from other bikes. In other words, I know very little about new parts. Those prices are for used component, yes?

By the way, I'm looking at a Marinoni Ciclo frame with Columbus Nova tubing on Friday. It was custom-built only a few years ago with a mix between touring a road geometry.. sounds right up my alley. I know it's not vintage anymore but can anyone tell me if 400-500 sounds like a good price for this frame? (with fork, headset and Campy BB and near-mint paintjob)

Yes... Very hard to find vintage NOS components these days.

+1 for getting a whole bike. Within the last few weeks I picked up an '87 Trek 400T with Reynolds 531 frame for $90 and a Schwinn Super Sport with Columbus Tenex frame and 600EX components for $105 (the Trek needed tires/tubes and I changed the saddle, stem, brake levers and bar, unnecessary, but my preference). The Schwinn is coming tomorrow, so I do not know what detailed work it needs. But there are deals out there looking to happen.

Too much (see previous comment for reference). If Columbus is your thing, there is no better value in the marker right now that the 84/5-88/9 Schwinns with Columbus SL, SP, and Tenax frames. Very common to find at $150 or so (whole bikes that is) and if you dig, you can find them for $50 or so, because the seller does not know what he/she has on his/her hands and because the reputation of the brand has recently been tarnished by becoming an X-mart bike.

Edit: Here is an example of a Schwinn Columbus Tenax framed bike that could be had for very little (I posted it at the finds sticky yesterday as well) :

http://cnj.craigslist.org/bik/1446600913.html

+1 Late 80s Schwinns with Columbus frames are pretty nice. I had a Tempo and a Prelude earlier this year, both moved on to another home.

Yes, those are used bike prices.

From a cost perspective its always less expensive to buy a complete. But, some people liek the satisfaction of building something themselves, there's nothing wrong with that. From a component cost perspective here are some examples:

Front derailleur: $26


Rear deraileur $21

Front derailleur $15

Derailleur set $25

Crankset $30


Schwinn Circuit $350

Thanks again everyone this is really helpful.

Miamijim, I hadn't realized ebay was such a good resource for parts like that.. this changes everything.

I will definitely start looking into scwhinns and treks.. I'll sheepishly admit that I'm romantically drawn to the Italian and French bikes, more for the names than anything since most of my riding has been done on my Peugeot U0-8 and my Fuji fixie conversion.

Ejuste, Columbus is not necessarily my thing. The problem is that I don't really know my thing yet. I am not going to hastily run out and buy a $500 frame but I want to get an idea of what's fair and what you get for what you pay. I like my peugeot but it's got irreparable issues and I figured since I'm replacing it, I might as well step it up. I just don't really know much in the way of tubing etc..

ebay is a great resource, but one thing that you have to keep in mind is that if you buy different parts from different sellers, the shipping can cost about 50% as much as the parts total.

As far as frames go, lightweight frames are better. Anything Columbus, Reynolds 531/753, Tange double butted would fit the bill. The geometry is probably more important than the exact frame material as is your size (because the really light weights SL, SLX, 753 etc are extremely hard to find in larger frames - and not advisable to use if you weight more than 175 lbs.) So figure what you want to use this bike for, do some research on what it was made using what and how, and proceed from there...

i'm sitting on a centurion dave scott ironman.. tange 1 tubing, (paint in poor shape - spraypainted) my size, coming with a fine BB, campagnolo veloce crankset, shimano levers, 105 brakes + deraillers, shimano downtube shifters, generic stem and drop bars... all for $160

based on everything i've heard, sounds like a good deal to me.. figured I'd get a bikeforum opinion before i act

Sounds good from here... :thumb:

It sounds like a decent price for a Centurion Ironman with mixed components depending on where you live. In Southern California it would cost more. In my opinion none of the Dave Scott Ironman frames ever had real desirable paint jobs, so the spray paint may be an improvement.:D If you plan on keeping it and treating it nice (as you mentioned above) you can probably get it sand blasted and powdercoated for less than $100.

I'd do the Ironman thing, and if the paint looks bad, get it blasted and powder-coated for $100 or so max, like CMC SanDiego says, though I disagree with him on the OEM paint jobs; it's a moot point since someone messed it up, anyway.

You can get a Shimano 600/Ultegra complete group for about $275 shipped, including wheels, 7-sp DT shifters,
or you can get a Shimano 600/Ultegra 8-sp STI group, no wheels, for about $250, delivered.

If $400 is your budget, you're done with the bike plus the 7-sp group with wheels, after selling the mismatched parts.

If you go a little higher, you can go with the 8-sp STI, find some aftermarket wheels for another $100, usually with tires, add a cassette, and then sell off the mismatched parts. You'll probably be in the $450-480 range and have a bike that will do a century with anyone else.