I haven't done that since I was 16, when my left pedal bumped the right rear tire of a car.:notamused:,,,,BD

Actually, my favorite automotive transmissions are DSGs and automatics with manual controls, but my viewpoint is affected by personal experience, including a wife who didn't like shifting her father's 1964 VW beetle and a left knee which has been immobilized twice, for a 2-4 weeks per patellar dislocation incident. Both of my sons like their manual shift Audis, but have indexed shift on their bicycles. I am the opposite, with friction shift all the way on my bikes, but that's what I grew up with, along with American cars with automatics.

I grew up riding bikes with friction shifting, but I like indexed much better - even on my bikes with downtube and barend shifters.

For me, friction is great for non-competitive riding, and it is definitely easier to adjust and maintain. My road racing bike has indexed brifters with a 10-speed cassette, and it must be adjusted perfectly or it won't work properly. Every time I change wheels, it has to be re-adjusted. And then there is that special narrow chain that needs a new pin every time it is removed from the bike for cleaning, and must be installed perfectly with it's own special chain tool, or it will either bind up or break. Not to mention the incredible cost of the lever assembly if you ever need to replace it.

For casual riding/commuting - I've begun to really like the suntour ratchet-style friction shifter. It take's a little getting used to. I only have friction on my bikes - so this is 80's high tech to me...



http://i.ebayimg.com/24/!BcKokRgB2k~...(fTEw~~_12.JPG

I have several bikes and switching between them is always interesting. Each drive train has it's own feel between the lever; cables and housing condition; derailer type; condition & adjustment! It takes while after getting used to one - to get used to another but then I fall into place and get my technique down. Just like riding a bike! :innocent:

In this off-season I might rework my converted hybrid. I put drops on it last winter and just flipped the rapid fires upside down. they're kinda freaky looking but work quite well. I've been toying with the idea of friction bar end shifters. I'll probably miss the speed of the rapid fires

When I rode my friend's miyata two summers ago, I really was afraid to take my hands of the bar. What's nice is on my cheap Raleigh, the shifters are actually on the head stem. Shifting is super easy and convenient.

Your shifters on the handlebars are pretty neat! Haven't seen that set up too much.

The only experience with index shifting for me is on my mountain bike. I like the twist grip but don't think the indexing is right.

How long does it take to get use to FS? It depends on what your drive train is. It tool quite a few miles when I first learned, but that was back in the 60's. Once I acclimated, it was automatic. I knew exactly how far to move the lever and it was done. like someone said, you can easily jump several cogs and if you know where to go, it is clean.

I recently changed a 6sp freewheel to a 7speed with hyperglide like design. What a huge improvement! I agree that the more cogs there are, the easier the shifting.

Taking your hands off the bar on a good bike is not an issue. In many ways, its like learning to friction shift. You need to get use to the bike first.

After a while you will learn to double shift with one hand.

I have friction shifting on almost every bike in my collection. I like the simplicity of set-up and the fact that everything is compatible with everything else. My bikes and parts generally come from the garbage, so it's nice to not have to buy something specific to build up a bike.

That said, I recently found a road bike with a complete and well-functioning SunTour Accushift group. I wasn't expecting it to work, nevermind work well. I like it and I'll leave it the way it is until something goes wrong.

I like the manual transmission comparison. Anyone ever ride vintage motor scooters (Vespa, Lambretta) with manual shifting? Much more fun than the modern "twist and go" dealies once you get the hang of it.

I'm a recent convert to friction too. I'm a bit spoiled w. retrofriction levers (campy), a modern slant parallelogram derailleur and a HG 7sp cassette. The shifting is very smooth and requires almost no force. With indexed levers the action can be quite stiff (although a bit less w. Shimano vs. Campy). I'm not too good yet in shifting on a bumpy downhill nor though multiple cogs, but it'll come :)

I've never figured out why people drive automatics (on cars). I learned to drive on a stick. I owned one car, as a kid that my dad bought, that was idiot-shift. Living in Colorado, I've always considered automatics dangerous. Its crazy in the mountains the way people allow their cars to accelerate while descending only to have to jam on the brakes. Every car I've ever bought was a manual. They are just so much safer as you have so much more control in the mountains. When there is ice and snow about 10,000 feet on the passes the last thing I'd want to be in is an automatic.

Anyone can drive the 250 miles over the Rocky Mountains, going over the passes, without touching their brakes once, as long as they are driving a manual. The funny thing is, that when all the cars are spun out in the snow banks, smashed into the guard rails, etc. no one ever stops to think, "Wow, those are all automatics that had to hit the brakes!"

Its amazing how many people in this country don't actually know how to drive. All they can do is steer the car and press a couple of pedals.

As that relates to bicycles, I think indexing front systems are idiotic. I don't care how many trim positions each ring gets. No front derailleur should be indexed, ever. A downtube shifter on a Kelly Take-Off, or a barend shifter and 'real' brake lever is lighter and provides superior shifting. Why have a boat anchor brifter that results in constant chain rub and parasitic drag. Why not just drag a small length of chain behind the bike while you ride?

What is a ratchet style friction shifter? How does it function and how does it feel when compared to other friction shifters?

I second this question and will add another set of questions.

What is friction shifting, in the context of what is rachet style friction shifting, and Mavic retrofriction shifting, as compared to the obvious indexing shifting.

I have some Mavic 821 8 speed indexing levers, and I'm interested in getting some of the older Mavic retrofriction levers, but I don't really know what retrofriction is. :innocent:

I mean, what's more "retro" than friction? :twitchy:

With a normal friction shifter you get that smooth motion shifting either to lower or higher gears. Suntour ratchet shifters have the same smooth friction feel shifting to higher gears. When you shift to lower gears it has a spring loaded mechanism that clicks slightly into place as it goes. It's still friction and you still have to find the gear but some people prefer the clicking feel.

Here is the ratchet mechanism in a suntour bar end shifter:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3116/...d519239e77.jpg

gotta love it.. set the H and L on the derailleur and clamp the cable and you are good to go. I have some suntour sprints retro friction mounted to some barend pods. They are really nice and smooth.

Speaking of hyperglide freewheels, I just got one and put it on one of my friction shifting bikes. I'm not sure it's hyperglide, but it's Shimano, with twisted teeth. What's a good chain for this? I'm using an old Sedisport chain which is not worn out. The Sedisport was an excellent chain, in its day, but I'm figuring there was no meeting between Sedis and Shimano to work out optimum shifting between their products. :)

Not all friction shifters were created equal. I have Suntour Sprint downtube shifters on one of my bikes and they are really much better than the Campy friction shifters I have on another. They somehow center the RD about the cog automatically. Only when really off is there any grinding.

I am using Campagnolo downtube friction shifters with a 9 speed system now, and the only problem is the occasional ghost shift. You don't get the distinctive rattle like the old systems produced. I usually know when I'm a little off when I shift just by where the shift occurs relative to the shifting input. If the chain just barely shifts before I stop moving the lever, I know I didn't quite get it in gear and it may ghost shift. Sometimes I'm too lazy to reach down and fix that. I have index shifting on my mountain bike, but I have it set to friction instead. I'm about to switch over to brifters on my main bike after using friction for 30 years. The advantage is obvious to me, although I'm sure I'm going to have to get used to it.

That may be a function of side-to-side play in your respective jockey wheels. Indexed shifting really took off after someone figured out precisely how much lateral slop the jockey wheel needed -- tight enough for good response and control, but loose enough to auto-align the last mm or so.

Also, if you are comparing a slant planograph SunTour derailleur against a conventional parallelogram Campagnolo, the former will win every time, unless it has gotten sloppy from wear.

I have a 78 raleigh pro with full campy nouvo record and a hyperglide 7speed freewheel. It shifts so nice, I'm only asking it to go up to 24 teeth but it does that just fine. Back 25 years ago, in my bike racing days I used simplex retro-friction shifters. I liked them but the spring in the rear derailluer shifter would always break. They were easy to get back then and cheap too, not anymore.
When shimano came out with index shifting a old girlfriend had that set-up, every time she dropped her bike the indexing would be off and I would have to tweek her derailluer hanger back. I guess that ruined me for life on index shifting.
My old alan cyclocross bike is sporting 30 year old suntour bar ends and a 7speed hyperglide feewheel, I love it!

I started riding seriously in 1975, so I'm completely used to friction shifting. I have two friction bikes and two indexed bikes, and I really don't care what type of shifting I have at my fingertips.

I have a fixed gear bike, too, with no shifting.

Hey Tom, I think the basic KMC Z chain will work fine. I use that chain on a 7 speed hyperglide freewheel with STI shifters and have no complaints. If you feel like getting something a bit nicer, the sram pc-850 or Shimano hyperglide chains will work. The z-chain comes with a removable link, I think the sram chain does too.

I ride friction on both my bikes, it had not crossed my mind for several months until this thread. Oh yeah, my MTB and my road bike are friction.

What's the most dramatic shifting your friction shifters can do?

I've set my Paramount up with Suntour Power Ratchet shifters, Campy SR FD, SR RD, Suntour 13-23 6spd, and a 50-34 Campy Veloce crankset. I catch all the gears except for the small-small(34-13)

I've seen new bikes with triple cranks(52-39-30) and cassettes with a 34T bailout gear. That would be some kind of push on a downtube shifter to hit that gear. Or do you sacrifice hitting the higher gears in order to get the lowest one?

mkeller234, thanks. I see those chains are quite inexpensive, but I'll stick with this for now. I didn't expect a freewheel to be so quiet WHILE PEDALING but the bike is quieter than ever. I love the fact that it also is silent while freewheeling.

I guess, in the end, those SunTour freewheels, while reliable, were not that great, compared with the competition.

bbattle, I don't follow your question. Every bike I have had, and I've had many, can get into every gear. I wouldn't settle for less.

I'm running the Sprint shifter with a Nuovo Record RD with normal pulley sideplay. Apparently the Sprints are of a "retrofriction" design.

Got pix?

You are quite correct... friction shifting in general is easy... whereas fast and accurate friction shifting takes practice.

But if you haven't used friction shifting in the last 25 years, don't give people faulty advice like the following:

Friction shifting drivetrains are MUCH more tolerant of grungy dirty conditions and shoddy maintenance than are the modern indexed systems. You can run a friction drivetrain for a loooooong time in between cleanings or adjustments compared to brifters or even indexed downtube systems. Meticulous cleaning required? Wrong!

Ghost shifting? OK. I'll give you that one. Much ghost shifting is caused by dirty cable guides... but most ghost shifting is often a product of a whippy frame and a powerful rider.

But dropping a chain at speed? C'mon... quit trying to scare people. That has everything to do with drivetrain adjustment... not drivetrain type. Because it allows you to finesse your shifts, friction shifting is probably less prone to chain drop than modern brifter systems. Brifters or indexed shifters just go "click" and you get what you get. Either system... friction or indexed... will drop the chain if they're badly adjusted.

That said... I wish that more people rode bikes with friction shifters. That way more people would appreciate the fact that I can shift through the rear cogs and switch chainwheels simultaneously with one hand. Not many people appreciate that type of skill anymore.

*sigh*

I'm a dinosaur...