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-   -   Why is titanium controversial? (https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/602726-why-titanium-controversial.html)

gomango 01-03-13 05:11 PM


Originally Posted by non-fixie (Post 15114862)
Too small to ride, but large enough not to need my reading glasses to look at it. Which is good, as it's probably the best-looking bike I own.

http://www.mijnalbum.nl/GroteFoto-YLMWAJKP.jpg

Very pretty bicycle you have there.

Love the finish.

Do you happen to have any links to detail pictures?

JesusBananas 01-03-13 05:11 PM


Originally Posted by jr59 (Post 15116069)
No I just bought her lunch at the end of the shoot!

Was the lunch also made in photoshop? ;)

YoKev 01-03-13 05:11 PM

Love my Ti Dean mountain bike, can't wait to upgrade my roadie as soon as I find a deal.

jr59 01-03-13 05:49 PM


Originally Posted by JesusBananas (Post 15116093)
Was the lunch also made in photoshop? ;)

sure was

martl 01-03-13 06:17 PM

Does this count as C&V? Frame is from 1998, already 15 years, gosh... Wheels and cranks also from the last millenium.

http://fstatic1.rennrad-news.de/img/...bodensee.jpg?0

http://fstatic1.rennrad-news.de/img/...dium/pbc.jpg?0http://fstatic1.rennrad-news.de/f/2g...ots_nass.jpg?0

zonatandem 01-03-13 06:38 PM

Owned a Merlin for about 3 years back in the '90s.
It was nice but no better/worse than other material.
Had an issue: harmonic vibrations at high speed.
Crashed at 38 mph descending a mountain pass in Utah due to heavy harmonics.
Tried the usual to elminate the vibration; clamped knees to toptube: no luck.
Lifted butt off saddle and leaned forward: no luck.
Vibration was so severe that bike slalomed across double yellow line several times on serpentine descent.
Had no desire to become a hood ornament on upcoming truck.
Tapped rear brake and prepared to roll over the bars, which I did.
Broken shoulder in 2 places, busted helmet and roadrash.
Personally met/talked with Merlin rep at the El Tour de Tucsonb expo.
He admitted that they had issues with harmonics.
Needless to say, got ride of the bike.
Currently riding a custom c/f single and tandem.

Orrery 01-03-13 06:39 PM

^Definitely a classic. Sweet bike. What cranks are those, by the way?

martl 01-03-13 06:42 PM


Originally Posted by Orrery (Post 15116387)
^Definitely a classic. Sweet bike. What cranks are those, by the way?

Those are Precision Bullet (PCB) ones. Tune later copied that design.

Giacomo 1 01-03-13 07:13 PM


Originally Posted by zonatandem (Post 15116382)
Owned a Merlin for about 3 years back in the '90s.
It was nice but no better/worse than other material.
Had an issue: harmonic vibrations at high speed.
Crashed at 38 mph descending a mountain pass in Utah due to heavy harmonics.
Tried the usual to elminate the vibration; clamped knees to toptube: no luck.
Lifted butt off saddle and leaned forward: no luck.
Vibration was so severe that bike slalomed across double yellow line several times on serpentine descent.
Had no desire to become a hood ornament on upcoming truck.
Tapped rear brake and prepared to roll over the bars, which I did.
Broken shoulder in 2 places, busted helmet and roadrash.
Personally met/talked with Merlin rep at the El Tour de Tucsonb expo.
He admitted that they had issues with harmonics.
Needless to say, got ride of the bike.
Currently riding a custom c/f single and tandem.

Woh, that's a bit of a scary story! Hard to believe they would sell a bike knowing the problems. Glad you were just beat-up, but alive!

But that's strange. We have a titanium expert named mtnbke that said on the previous page -


Titanium always builds a better bike than steel. ALWAYS.
So, how could such an expert like him be wrong? I'm shattered...:lol:

gomango 01-03-13 07:45 PM


Originally Posted by martl (Post 15116314)
Does this count as C&V? Frame is from 1998, already 15 years, gosh... Wheels and cranks also from the last millenium.

http://fstatic1.rennrad-news.de/img/...bodensee.jpg?0

http://fstatic1.rennrad-news.de/img/...dium/pbc.jpg?0http://fstatic1.rennrad-news.de/f/2g...ots_nass.jpg?0

Beautiful bicycle.

Looks like the Voralpen Gebiet, perhaps not so far from Ramsau?

CrankyFranky 01-03-13 08:40 PM

Zonatandem's story has got me glad I was outibid recently on a Merlin. Harmonic issues scare the juice right out of me - whether you can dampen it with your knees or not. All the lower speed riding in the world doesn't prepare you for when your bike refuses to do what you want because it's doing the wibble-wobble during the relatively rare high speed descents.

I don't imagine that all titanium frames share this fault. But it can't be the only one. From other threads on the subject of what makes a steel frame "whippy", what I understood was that such harmonic instabilities simply arise unpredictably in some frames when certain materials in certain gauges with tubes at certain angles when loaded in a certain way... (bla bla bla!). In short you don't know when instability will show at speed - until it does. Perhaps not all frame sizes, even within a single tubeset and model line, will show whippiness. But if the company can say "yeah, we've had harmonic (read stability) issues" it kind of makes me glad that this company isn't building these things anymore. Apparently, Zonatandem isn't the litigious type but more of the "thank heavens I'm still alive" type. I'm glad you're still alive too!

We can all marvel at a gleaming artistically perfect silver frame and get all frothy-minded and think that it has got to be great 'cause it looks so good and costs so much and has had so much subtle and arduously applied technical skill distilled in its making. And at fairly plodding or pedestrian speeds feels great too. Until the speedy UH - OH moment that our friend has shared.

So THANK YOU Zonatandem for giving us your story and glad you survived!!!

Me - I still lust for one, and I'll continue to watch the sales, but now for me at least I will choose a more current design. That will of course, price it right out of my range of affordability. Sigh.

CrankyFranky 01-03-13 08:50 PM

PS ...
And for now I'll stick with my heavier 30 year old made for me steel full- butted 531 frame, warts and all.
Until I hit the lottery.

martl 01-04-13 01:09 AM


Originally Posted by gomango (Post 15116627)
Beautiful bicycle.

Looks like the Voralpen Gebiet, perhaps not so far from Ramsau?

Thanks! :) and close... Upper picture shot taken in the Appenzeller Land near the Bodensee, at St. Anton (not the famous ski ressort).

gomango 01-04-13 05:41 AM


Originally Posted by martl (Post 15117562)
Thanks! :) and close... Upper picture shot taken in the Appenzeller Land near the Bodensee.

Perhaps one of the most beautiful destinations in Europe.

My wife's family has a small apartment in the Bodensee area that they use for family guests.

We'll be overnighting there as we travel back down to the Tuscan town of Volterra this summer.

I'll have to check and see if they have bicycles at the apartment. :)

Thanks for the reply!

16Victor 01-04-13 06:30 AM


Originally Posted by zonatandem (Post 15116382)
Had an issue: harmonic vibrations at high speed...Personally met/talked with Merlin rep at the El Tour de Tucsonb expo...He admitted that they had issues with harmonics.

Interesting but this is not the fault of Ti, it's poor engineering.

KonAaron Snake 01-04-13 06:49 AM

My Specialized Sirrus used to do that and I've heard of many bikes having it happen. I strongly doubt Merlin or titanium are any more prone to vibration than any other frame. When things vibrate at high speed weird things can happen.

kaliayev 01-04-13 07:04 AM


Originally Posted by 16Victor (Post 15117855)
Interesting but this is not the fault of Ti, it's poor engineering.

Agreed. Great bikes can and have been made of steel, Ti, cf, and aluminium and so can and have really bad ones. Who would have thought that design and those "hack" master craftsmen could be so important.

bmwstbill 01-07-13 07:15 PM


Originally Posted by dgodave (Post 14930182)
Love my Ti Litespeed Ocoee from 1994(?).
.

Did you say Litespeed Ocoee?

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...tespeed002.jpg

It is just the nicest by far.
Got a Surly LHT that is close...but no cigar.
bill

dgodave 01-07-13 07:19 PM


Originally Posted by bmwstbill (Post 15131420)
Did you say Litespeed Ocoee?

Yes, I sure did. Its still my main mtb.
.
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4066/4...db5fa1f9_z.jpg
.

KonAaron Snake 01-07-13 08:35 PM

These posts almost make me feel guilty about what I did to my Ocoee:

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/a...d/photo-48.jpg

DIMcyclist 01-08-13 02:49 PM


Originally Posted by BengeBoy (Post 10030540)
At my friendly local framebuilder, Ti bikes are a $900 premium vs. Tig welded steel; about a $700 premium vs. lugged steel.

Other than the price I can't think of any downside.

The worst insult I ever saw about titanium bikes came from Mr. Retrogrouch himself, Grant Petersen. He was once quoted as objecting to ti bikes because they are "ghostly" in appearance (apparently unaware that Ti can be painted, just like steel). If that's the most that he can come up with, I figure it's not too bad.

Sounds like typical GP: 1/2 Old Hickory wisdom & 1/2 complete BS. Well... I suppose we could call it 'poetry', rather than B.S.; poetry isn't poorly intended and it doesn't have to be factual.

Still- I'd never paint a Ti bike myself, the metal itself is just too damn cool-looking.

16Victor 01-08-13 03:42 PM


Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake (Post 15131705)
These posts almost make me feel guilty about what I did to my Ocoee:

Ouch. The shame.

Italuminium 01-08-13 03:47 PM


Originally Posted by martl (Post 15117562)
Thanks! :) and close... Upper picture shot taken in the Appenzeller Land near the Bodensee, at St. Anton (not the famous ski ressort).

MArtl, that bike of yours is amazing. The cranks compliment the frame perfectly. I've been to that part a few times, though never with a bike, sadly!

non-fixie 01-08-13 04:34 PM


Originally Posted by gomango (Post 15116091)
Very pretty bicycle you have there.

Love the finish.

Do you happen to have any links to detail pictures?

Thanks, gomango. Have a look here for more pictures.

top506 01-08-13 04:58 PM


Originally Posted by DIMcyclist (Post 15134377)
Still- I'd never paint a Ti bike myself, the metal itself is just too damn cool-looking.

Oh, I don't know about that. Heat-resistant matte black with red pin striping like a SR-71 would be very cool.

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