Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Saronni Colnago Great Catch! What tubing is this? I read its SL.

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Saronni Colnago Great Catch! What tubing is this? I read its SL.

Old 12-02-09, 11:52 PM
  #1  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 612
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Saronni Colnago Great Catch! What tubing is this? I read its SL.

Brought home a Saronni Colnago, the frame is red with yellow accents. The frame tubing is also tear drop. Im going to clean it up and post pix when finished
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
sarroni 001.jpg (96.8 KB, 422 views)
File Type: jpg
sarroni 011.jpg (96.7 KB, 379 views)
italianbiker is offline  
Old 12-02-09, 11:53 PM
  #2  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 612
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
here are more pix
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
sarroni 012.jpg (98.7 KB, 364 views)
File Type: jpg
sarroni 007.jpg (98.5 KB, 360 views)
File Type: jpg
sarroni 013.jpg (100.3 KB, 365 views)
File Type: jpg
sarroni 008.jpg (92.5 KB, 386 views)
italianbiker is offline  
Old 12-03-09, 09:37 AM
  #3  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23,223
Mentioned: 656 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4722 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3,046 Times in 1,882 Posts
I seriously doubt this is SL, but hopefully I'm wrong. Remove the seatpost and check for stampings indicating the size. Then remove the front wheel and check inside the bottom of the fork's steerer tube for five helical ridges. Report back with the findings.
T-Mar is offline  
Old 12-03-09, 09:36 PM
  #4  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 612
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
thanks T-mar i will check it over the weekend, i was looking thorough the catalog on line that listed these with SL

What do you think of these bike? i couldnt believe how nice it rode.
italianbiker is offline  
Old 12-04-09, 06:54 AM
  #5  
Large Member
 
urodacus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Okinawa
Posts: 1,186

Bikes: 05 Giant TCR 0; 94 Le Mond Alpe d'Huez; 83 Colnago Saronni; 81 San Rensho Katana Super Export track bike, #A116-56; 97 GT Zaskar

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by T-Mar
remove the front wheel and check inside the bottom of the fork's steerer tube for five helical ridges. Report back with the findings.

that'd be SLX, wouldn't it?

My Saronni is Aelle, not a bad tube set, and still nearly the same weight as an SL frame.

some Saronni apparently came SL from the factory, but those I think were the very earliest ones, which had Colnago decals, rather than the second generation which looks like what you have (which had Saronni down and seat tube decals and often a colnago club on the head tube), and then later ones still had a picture of Saroni's chubby face on the head tube.

the seat post diameter is 26.8 on the Aelle tube bikes. Later ones were sometimes Aelle tretubi (who knows what came out of the parts bin for the stays), but details are hard to come by and little is known about these bikes. yours may well have been still made under contract for Colnago before the Saronni label got farmed out to Technotrat.
urodacus is offline  
Old 12-04-09, 07:13 AM
  #6  
Senior Member
 
miamijim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 13,954
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 413 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 109 Times in 78 Posts
Originally Posted by urodacus
that'd be SLX, wouldn't it?
.
SL: Forks have helical ridges. Main tubes do not.
SLX: Forks and main tubes have helical ridges.
miamijim is offline  
Old 12-04-09, 11:23 PM
  #7  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 612
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
The top tube is tear drop, not completely round does that make a difference. I did see one on ebay i will post a pix of the frame i think that was the first generation you were talking about, so mine is a second generation?

https://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/colnago/03.jpg

Last edited by italianbiker; 12-05-09 at 12:47 AM.
italianbiker is offline  
Old 01-23-20, 04:06 AM
  #8  
HPL
Barred @ Velocipedesalon
 
HPL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: USA
Posts: 436

Bikes: Why list them on a non-cycling website!

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked 71 Times in 55 Posts
I have had this frame gathering a little dust, but now have time and parts to work on it. Year unknown (mid '80s?), tubing type unknown (not "SLX" as decal shows; repainted/new decals), fork make unknown (Columbus decals probably not original since I have not seen them on other examples). Top tube and down tube are "oval" (not "tear dropped") shaped in the middle 2/3's of the tube, but round at the lug conjunctions (Oval CX has oval lugs); TT goes from 1.025" diameter at the lug down to .86" in the middle. I can not see any ridges on the seat tube, my notes say 26.0mm post (need to verify); I do see a seam in the seat tube, so might be "Aelle" or "Cromor" (not sure how to identify) custom shaped tubes, seat stays are also narrow. Stay caps have "S" pantographed, fork crown has "S" and "SARONNI" pantographed, "triangle/heart" shaped lug cut-outs fore and aft, 2 Slots in bottom bracket shell similar to the early Colnago cyclo-cross frame. Missing TT guides, examples I've seen (only 3 so far) have 3 solid guides; may have been removed during repaint, but why? Possibly damaged, but all 3! Headset race seat on fork steerer needs to be machined and sleeved to original diameter due to rust damage (not that bad, but better to make it 100% right at this stage in the game). Overall in very good shape other than the steerer seat. I hear a lot about "Saronni" Colnagos, but most are not "Saronni's" just "Supers" with the "Saronni Red" paint work. The paint color did not make it a "Saronni"; all "Saronni" frames/forks are clearly marked/pantographed as such regardless of the color (not all were "Saronni Red"). I believe this to be one of 3 "Saronni" variants with Colnago badging (excepting non-Colnago Tecnotrat built frames); 1) the "Saronni Super" w/Columbus "SL" tubes (built to commemorate '82 Worlds victory, although Saronni rode on a 1st gen. "Nuovo Mexico"; years '83?'-'8?), 2) the "Saronni Giro d'Italia" w/Columbus "SL" tubes (built to commemorate Giro victories, years 82?-8?, catalog image from '82-'83 era since same shows a 1st gen. "Nuovo Mexico" with 2 "crimp TT and DT, '84 started the 2nd gen. "Nuovo Mexicos" with 2 "crimp" TT and 4 "crimp" DT), 3) the "Saronni Criterium" (built to commemorate ?, years?), not an ultra-light frame (have yet to weigh it). It is not built with "SL", "SLX" or "SP" tubes, and may not be Columbus tubing at all. I am not familiar with a post size of 26.0mm in reference to a specific tube make and/or type; the post size seems small so I will check again to ensure I'm reading my notes on and/or measured this frame correctly.

If anyone has further information about this frame/tubing I would like to hear it.

Sorry for trying to breath life into an old thread, but I figured I would keep the topic consolidated.

Photos to follow! Some are from the previous seller's listing since they were pretty decent. I tried to show tubing taper from top view in my photo(s). Photo credit: Velosaloon (white background pics)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
IMG_20200121_113009.jpg (1.71 MB, 276 views)

Last edited by HPL; 03-13-20 at 02:58 AM. Reason: Photos
HPL is offline  
Old 01-23-20, 08:45 AM
  #9  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23,223
Mentioned: 656 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4722 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3,046 Times in 1,882 Posts
Originally Posted by HPL
I have had this frame gathering a little dust....
Most of the quasi-areo frames (down and seat tubes aero profile only in the middle section) tended to be entry level, hi-tensile tubesets. This was a cost effectiveness way to cash in on the early 1980s aero craze. A 26.0mm post would be in the range of a lightweight hi-tensile steel and seamed construction would also fit the profile. I'm wondering if it's actually 26.2mm, which was a fairly common post size on Italian, lightweight, hi-tensile steel tubesets of the era. 26.2mm posts were used with the Tullio tubesets seen on entry level Atala and other Rizzato brands, and the Calibrati 1-20 tubeset used on entry level Bianchi. Columbus had a lightweight, hi-tensile steel (which they called carbon steel) during this era called Zeta. It was slightly thinner gauge, typically using a 26.6mm seat post.
T-Mar is offline  
Likes For T-Mar:
Old 01-23-20, 12:53 PM
  #10  
HPL
Barred @ Velocipedesalon
 
HPL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: USA
Posts: 436

Bikes: Why list them on a non-cycling website!

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked 71 Times in 55 Posts
Originally Posted by T-Mar
Most of the quasi-areo frames (down and seat tubes aero profile only in the middle section) tended to be entry level, hi-tensile tubesets. This was a cost effectiveness way to cash in on the early 1980s aero craze. A 26.0mm post would be in the range of a lightweight hi-tensile steel and seamed construction would also fit the profile. I'm wondering if it's actually 26.2mm, which was a fairly common post size on Italian, lightweight, hi-tensile steel tubesets of the era. 26.2mm posts were used with the Tullio tubesets seen on entry level Atala and other Rizzato brands, and the Calibrati 1-20 tubeset used on entry level Bianchi. Columbus had a lightweight, hi-tensile steel (which they called carbon steel) during this era called Zeta. It was slightly thinner gauge, typically using a 26.6mm seat post.
Thanks T-Mar,

I could feel you looking over my shoulder as I wrote that post. I forgot about "Zeta"! Probably because I have no frames built using it. I knew there was a fairly distinct Columbus decal that could be ID'd at a distance and/or if in poor condition due to its print/design/font; just could not remember which one.
I had seen this image of a like frame, but I couldn't find out anything about it. I could not discern the Columbus decal, but I knew it was not the decal I had in mind (Zeta), and I still did not know what it was. I managed to find the write-up for that frame that gave some good information if that frame has original decals (described like they are). From WorthPoint website (photo credit), it describes the tube decal as: "Columbus Aelle Tubi Speciali In Accino Al Carbonio Manganese". No post size is given. The write-up references a "CRITERIUM" decal, but none shown (possibly driveside only). Only difference is headbadge; "clubs" vice "Saronni portrait". Repro decal set for a "Saronni Super" was probably used on my frame; I assume it was the more readily or only available set. If it is a straight gauge "Aelle" frame it would explain the weight. I'll try to get a wall thickness if my micrometer is up to the task.
My 2 "Aelle" frames both take 26.8mm posts. My Olmo "Aelle" frame feels lighter being approximately the same size (60.5mm c-c).

Blue bike has a "CRITERIUM" TT decal, headbadge not visible. Listing says it is 1982. (photo credit: belky87)

This may end up being an odd build. I was planning on using clamp-on guides for TT, but I might eschew the rear brakes altogether, run a single front ring, and rear 7/8 spd (whatever I can readily fit in the 126mm rear fork, 7 spd should work). Although I ride more than one road bike without a front derailleur (one is my climber), they all have double rings and can be "manually" shifted. I'd now like to do this frame without the FD and small ring. Might go 52t or 53t, and 12t-28t. I assume that it should be a stiff frame; I'm curious to see how it feels under hard acceleration given the narrow side-to-side profile of the top and down tubes.

Thanks again T-Mar!

Last edited by HPL; 01-23-20 at 12:59 PM.
HPL is offline  
Old 01-23-20, 01:37 PM
  #11  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23,223
Mentioned: 656 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4722 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3,046 Times in 1,882 Posts
Yes, that decal does appear to be Aelle. It looks like there may something in front of the Aelle, so maybe tre-tubi Aelle? Aelle was a carbon manganese tubeset, with properties between hi-tensile steel and the chromium-molybdenum alloy used in Columbus SL. So, it is a higher grade than what I suggested but not up to SL grade. Aelle, was straight gauge and had a wall thickness of 0.8mm, resulting in a typical seat post diameter 26.8mm. There was a double butted version, called Aelle R (R = rinforzati = reinforced/butted), that came out circa 1985.

I find it interesting that the top and down tubes are quasi-aero, as opposed to the top down and seat tubes, which would be normal practice. There's no aero advantage to using this in the top tube. It looks like the top tube has the major axis of the ellipse orientated vertically. That would decrease both vertical compliance and lateral rigidity, which I wouldn't think would be desirable from a comfort and handling standpoints. It will be interesting to have your riding impressions. Regardless, thank-you for posting and solving the tubeset riddle.

Edit: Cromor was released for 1986 but at the time was called Matrix.By then, the aero craze was pretty much dead, except for TT frames, which were adopting the "funny bike" style with sloping top tubes and a smaller diameter front wheel. Consequently, I doubt it's Matrix/Cromor. Still, it's easy enough to differentiate from Aelle, based on the seat post diameter. Like SL, Matrix/Cromor typically used a 27.2mm seat post.

Last edited by T-Mar; 01-23-20 at 01:50 PM.
T-Mar is offline  
Old 01-24-20, 09:08 AM
  #12  
HPL
Barred @ Velocipedesalon
 
HPL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: USA
Posts: 436

Bikes: Why list them on a non-cycling website!

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked 71 Times in 55 Posts
Saronni Colnago Criterium "Aero"

"....interesting that the top and down tubes are quasi-aero, as opposed to the down and seat tubes, which would be normal practice. There's no aero advantage to using this in the top tube. It looks like the top tube has the major axis of the ellipse orientated vertically. That would decrease both vertical compliance and lateral rigidity, which I wouldn't think would be desirable from a comfort and handling standpoint...."

My thoughts exactly, it certainly will be an interesting test ride. The only question that remains regarding these frames would be where they were actually built. With no Colnago signature frame details I am assuming that this was a contract build done "out of house", but where?

I will provide as much information about this frame as I proceed with the build. Verification of seat post diameter, weight, etc.

Listing by another "Criterium" owner: "It's from a period where Colnago decided to try non Campagnolo groupsets to make most of 'innovations' of the time." Parts that are original as this owner believes: OFMEGA "Premier" front and rear derailleurs, FIR rims, Miche hubs, 3t bar (w/aero routing), Modolo "Flash" stem, Selle Italia "Turbo" saddle, Cambio Rino aero post, Universal brakeset.

I am not sure if the parts are original as listed for this frame.

I will remove "SLX" and fork decals and install them on a frame using that tubing.

Last edited by HPL; 04-16-24 at 02:33 PM.
HPL is offline  
Old 02-19-20, 03:53 AM
  #13  
HPL
Barred @ Velocipedesalon
 
HPL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: USA
Posts: 436

Bikes: Why list them on a non-cycling website!

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked 71 Times in 55 Posts
Saronni Colnago Criterium "Aero"

I have weighed the frame (no fork, being repaired) at 5.5 lbs. The seat post was said to be 26.0mm, but I cannot fit that size in the tube (possibly due to mis-shaped tube/binder clamp). I can easily fit a 25.4mm, and a 25.8mm will fit snug (I have no 25.6mm post to compare). Fork had rust damage at the crown race seat and needed to be sent out to be machined and re-sleeved to the correct dimension.

I could not get a measurement of the tube thickness due to lack of proper measuring device; need a long straight leg caliper for that measurement
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
IMG_20200213_114013.jpg (1.05 MB, 191 views)
HPL is offline  
Old 02-19-20, 08:18 AM
  #14  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23,223
Mentioned: 656 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4722 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3,046 Times in 1,882 Posts
Originally Posted by HPL
I have weighed the frame (no fork, being repaired) at 5.5 lbs. The seat post was said to be 26.0mm, but I cannot fit that size in the tube (possibly due to mis-shaped tube/binder clamp). I can easily fit a 25.4mm, and a 25.8mm will fit snug (I have no 25.6mm post to compare). Fork had rust damage at the crown race seat and needed to be sent out to be machined and re-sleeved to the correct dimension.

I could not get a measurement of the tube thickness due to lack of proper measuring device; need a long straight leg caliper for that measurement
Hmm, sounds like we're back down into the region of a lightweight hi-tensile steel. Take a large flat bladed screwdriver and insert it into the top of the cinch slot for the seat post. Gently pry the slot open until the top of slot is is slightly wider, than the bottom. This will allow you to get the proper sized post past the mouth of the tube and down into the region at the bottom of the slot, which will allow you to determine the correct diameter post.

That's a lot of money and work for the crown race seat, unless you can do it yourself. First, I'd just try cleaning and neutralizing the rust. You may be surprised at how little the dimension is actually affected. If it is undersize by too much, there are some cheaper solutions that you may want to consider:

1. Create a shim from a stainless steel feeler gauge. Most automotive shops sell 6" feeler gauges for ~$5.00, in thickness from 0.001" and up.

2. Use a metal punch to create divots in the wall on the crown race seat. This will upset little mounds of displaced material around the divots, enlarging the effective diameter and creating an interference fit for the crown race.

3. Have the crown race seat knurled, which basically does the same thing as the punch but should be cheaper than machining and installing a new sleeve.

If the above fails, you can always still have it machined and sleeved.
T-Mar is offline  
Old 02-19-20, 01:01 PM
  #15  
HPL
Barred @ Velocipedesalon
 
HPL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: USA
Posts: 436

Bikes: Why list them on a non-cycling website!

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked 71 Times in 55 Posts
Originally Posted by T-Mar
Hmm, sounds like we're back down into the region of a lightweight hi-tensile steel. Take a large flat bladed screwdriver and insert it into the top of the cinch slot for the seat post. Gently pry the slot open until the top of slot is is slightly wider, than the bottom. This will allow you to get the proper sized post past the mouth of the tube and down into the region at the bottom of the slot, which will allow you to determine the correct diameter post.

That's a lot of money and work for the crown race seat, unless you can do it yourself. First, I'd just try cleaning and neutralizing the rust. You may be surprised at how little the dimension is actually affected. If it is undersize by too much, there are some cheaper solutions that you may want to consider:

1. Create a shim from a stainless steel feeler gauge. Most automotive shops sell 6" feeler gauges for ~$5.00, in thickness from 0.001" and up.

2. Use a metal punch to create divots in the wall on the crown race seat. This will upset little mounds of displaced material around the divots, enlarging the effective diameter and creating an interference fit for the crown race.

3. Have the crown race seat knurled, which basically does the same thing as the punch but should be cheaper than machining and installing a new sleeve.

If the above fails, you can always still have it machined and sleeved.
Thanks for the ideas my friend; I do have some stainless steel "shim in a can" @ .003"; might not fit, hadn't thought about trying it. Only used it for automotive work before. I like the dimple method so I may give it a try. The fork at the shop is still unmodified so a good option; it's like "dimple tuning" RF waveguides. It's $50 for the machining; just wanted to have a more permanent repair if I decide to sell/trade the frame, but I'm fine with any repair for myself if it functions and holds tight.
I had already spread the clamp and the 26.0 post is still very tight once past the clamp slot. Everything seems in good shape in the tube; I have not sanded or reamed it, just light cleaning with steel wool.
HPL is offline  
Old 04-16-24, 02:58 PM
  #16  
HPL
Barred @ Velocipedesalon
 
HPL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: USA
Posts: 436

Bikes: Why list them on a non-cycling website!

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked 71 Times in 55 Posts
I have passed on my "Saronni Criterium" frame, but I wanted to provide this reference as proof that Colnago did "make" the bike. This is from a Japanese language Colnago catalog from 1984. It has the 30th Anniversary version of the first Arabesque bike. It also has another Saronni model I have never heard of: "Saronni Mondial". Hope this helps others since I would now consider these bikes to be Colnagos even if frames are built by another builder. I would assume the tube shaping was still a Colnago design.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
02.jpg (225.9 KB, 79 views)
HPL is offline  
Old 04-16-24, 04:44 PM
  #17  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 617
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 170 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 258 Times in 149 Posts
I thought Saronni production was outsourced to Tecnotrat?
VtwinVince is offline  
Old 04-16-24, 07:58 PM
  #18  
HPL
Barred @ Velocipedesalon
 
HPL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: USA
Posts: 436

Bikes: Why list them on a non-cycling website!

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked 71 Times in 55 Posts
Originally Posted by VtwinVince
I thought Saronni production was outsourced to Tecnotrat?
I believe the original Saronni "Supers" and "Giros" were all Colnago built, but they were only made for couple years. I don't know who built the "Criterium" and "Mondial" models. I think both were designed as mid level bikes with less expensive components, but no idea if the frames were built outside the factory or not. The fact that they are in the Colnago catalog at least gives hope that they were designed and quality controlled by Colnago. I don't think there were any more Saronni badged bikes by Colnago after '84 so it is safe to assume that Saronni sold naming rights to Tecnotrat shortly after; those Tecnotrat bikes had nothing to do with Colnago in any way as far as I know.
HPL is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.