Grand Bois

The leather is different on those Persons saddles. I believe it was John D. Thompson that posted that it's actually buffalo hide. That would make sense, since they're made in India. The green Persons saddle that I had was streaky, like it didn't take the dye very well. It wasn't as well made as a Brooks, but it was very comfortable for me.

Veloria

I am confused why some say that Brooks saddles are so much more expensive and are only for those with lots of cash to spend. Even if we go by retail prices alone, the difference in price between Brooks and the "knock-offs" is marginal when you consider the difference in quality. I am not talking about the Brooks titanium or limited edition saddles, but their standard range - as it is only fair to compare like against like.

Furthermore, there are several prominent gray market dealers on ebay as well as online discount shops that sell Brooks for as much as 50% off retail. These deals are not that hard to find if you use the search engines, and in some cases these new Brooks saddles actually end up costing less than the knock-offs.

Finally, when comparing affordability, it is not just the price that needs to be taken into consideration, but how long the saddle will last you. From anecdotal reports I have heard, the knocck-off brands tend to fall apart considerably faster than Brooks. Brooks saddles last for decades. A $90 saddle replaced every 1-2 years is not cheaper than a $140 saddle replaced every 10 years. It's just common sense.

EjustE

Let's look at racing saddles. The Brooks B-15 swallow new has never been won on ebay for less that $200. New Selle San Marco Regal and Rolls saddles are often listed with BIN at $75. Even if the leather on the B15 were better than the leather on the Rolls or the Regal, is it 3 times better? Would it last 3 times more? I doubt it, since you see a lot of 20 year old Rolls saddles out there... And they are more comfortable that the B15.

pastorbobnlnh 

Why do you link B-15 with a Swallow? They are different saddles.

The B-15 has been out of production for a while now (my guess the early '80s). My description of it would be a slightly wider B-17.

Here's my B-15 from about 1970-71. It sports a nice patina.



There is a rarer version of the B-15 "Champion Flier" that has "Made in Great Britain" instead of England (I forget which C&Ver this belongs to).



The Swallow is still made and here's a picture from Nashbar. It is very expensive at $450. It would be a bargain on ebay in $200+ range.

Cyclist0383

There was also a B-15 Narrow. I recently gave one to a friend.

mickey85

In 500 miles, I've used clear shoe polish on my saddle twice, and "Slathered" it with proofide once. I carry a cover on the bike for the saddle, but chances are, if it's raining and the bike is outside, my butt is on the saddle, so it's not getting wet.

And as far as breaking in, I see it like a baseball glove, winter weather gloves, or a good pair of Florsheims. You don't expect instant comfort (although LOTS of people say that the Brooks, as well as FLorsheims are comfy right out of the box), because you know that it's a product that is going to last you for the next 75 years.

EjustE

Brooks does not think so:

https://www.brookssaddles.com/en/Shop_ProductPage.aspx?cat=saddles+-+road+%26+mtb∏=B15+Swallow+Chrome

lotek 

History Lesson:
Brooks introduced the Champion Swallow in 1936, and was designated the B.17 Champion Swallow in the 1939 Brown Brothers catalog.
This model had stitched in wire and copper rivets. Production continued until sometime during WWII, when it was discontinued.
In 1951 production continued, again with copper rivets and stitched in wire. In 1957 the B.15 Swallow was introduced, it differed from the
B.17 Swallow in that it had no stitched in wire, steel rivets and an inferior quality leather. All of the current Swallows (Ti railed, steel railed and white saddle) are all based on the 1957 B.15 swallow.
Thanks to Tony C. of the U.K., Brooks' restorer, for the above history.

I have 2 Wrights swallow copies and one original (50's to 60's model) and I can say the Brooks definitely has a thicker leather.
These are my preferred saddles, with the Selle San Marco regal, and B.17 close seconds.

PastorBob, that Swallow is the Ti railed version, the steel rail version is less expensive, $152.00 from Total cycling
in the UK. BTW the Regal saddles are now $170 at Nashbar. . .

EjustE

Not a good place to shop if not on sale.

Regal at Niagara for $91
https://www.niagaracycle.com/product_...ucts_id=417400

newenglandbike

I totally agree with your logic here, but I have to disagree that it is 'common sense'. It's not very common, in my view, for folks to spend more for quality. I know it's a default punching bag for these matters, so it's lazy of me to employ it as an example here, but I give you Exhibit A: Walmart. I've shopped there myself, while using my 'common sense'.

awc380

Christ, who the hell cares?
Buy whatever you want...

bigbossman 

Also commonly available at PBK for $70-$80. I just bought a white one moments ago for $73 delivered, and they're giving away a nice chain tool with every >$50 purchase.

rhm

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't the Regal a padded saddle? Those of us who prefer leather saddles --Brooks or not-- prefer them, for the most part, because they are not padded. Don't misunderstand me: I know a lot of people love padded saddles, and I'm not saying anything against them, and for sure I haven't tried the Regal. But a padded saddle, even if covered with leather, isn't the same thing as a leather saddle. This is both an advantage (light, low maintenance, etc) and a disadvantage (some people dislike padding).

Mos6502

Brooks used to offer Wrights as their "standard" and Brooks as their "superior" to use your terms.

I didn't really pay attention to this before, but this whole first post is loaded. Brooks did not invent leather saddles, so it's a bit of a stretch to say anything that's not made by brooks is a knock off. Why should other companies not make leather saddles? You wouldn't say that Honda is just a knock off of Ford, because they build four wheeled cars out of steel.

And I doubt Brooks is going anywhere, their products are popular and they'll always have their fans.

pastorbobnlnh 

I stand corrected! Thanks for this link. It seems odd they would use the B-15 tag on several very different styles of saddles. Learn something new every day here in C&V.

bigbossman 

Technically, I guess so. But in feel, not really. It has about as much deflection as a B17 when pressed, maybe a touch more. But the shape's different, it weighs a lot less, and has a plastic shell so it won't lose tension or get misshapen by the elements.

Don't get me wrong - I'm sure the Brooks is a fine saddle for those of you it fits. But after almost 700 miles on my last one (B17), I gave up waiting for it to break in. And it was way too wide - unless I was sitting upright (and I do not). For a comparably shaped Brooks the Regal is a better choice for me, both in price and function.

I've sold every Brooks I've ever owned, but have yet to sell a Regal.

EjustE

If you need more, it looks like BikePro has the Titanium railed Regals for $65 and the Rolls for $33. Now this is a deal (gotta scroll in the link)

https://www.bikepro.com/ad_copy/saddles.html

iluvnoise

Just to add another seeming knockoff to the mix, anyone check out gyes?
https://www.gyes.com.tw/index.htm

Also, anyone have any personal experience and or details with the San Marco Regal or Rolls? Their website is fairly non-descriptive and I'd like to know more about them . . . Leather? Padded? Nylon shell or steel frame?

EDIT: Nevermind. I see bigbossman answered my question above. See, I think the nylon shell is the showstopper for me. It seems to defeat the purpose of buying a leather saddle, right? Or am I missing something?

EjustE

I had several personal experiences with both the afforementioned San Marco saddles as well as several Brooks saddles. (and there is no way I would call the San Marco saddles a Brooks "knock off"). My butt feels at home with a San Marco Regal at day one but not so with a Brooks (that leather is STIFF if you get it new). Both saddles are awful when touching water (slip sliding away) and are not suited to wet use. Nevertheless, on a good sunny day a Regal or a Rolls (at a third of the price, may I add) is better that a Brooks in racing events. And if you don't believe me check this ( https://www.competitivecyclist.com/ro...anium.595.html) and this (https://www.competitivecyclist.com/ro...nium.1749.html) and then calculate the price point. As I posted earlier a new Rolls can be had for $33 + shipping

Zaphod Beeblebrox 

Merchandise of Quality! Ergonomic of Designing. A Professional and Top-Notch of Manufacture!

Mos6502

Well, the advantages are such: the saddle can be lighter, it does not need to be broken in, it will not loose its shape. The leather cover means it still feels like leather though. Some older nylon saddles could be adjusted for tension just like leather saddles (are any still made this way?) too.

But the problem is (I guess if you see it this way), that the nylon saddle won't ever really soften up like leather, and it won't really ever conform to fit you either.

Grand Bois

Could Gyes be the manufacturer of the VO saddles?

mickey85

I think (correct me if I"m wrong) that Cardiff is the VO manufacturer...

Tom Velo Orange

umm... cardiff is NOT a manufacturer. Tt's a brand cooked up from regional bike distributor Merry sales, who also owns Soma, Cardiff is like their Frisco Freestyle BMX brand: a toe hold in a market category.
Cardiff certainly does not make our saddles; we don't fabricate stuff for them either. More here:
https://velo-orange.blogspot.com/2009...at-growth.html

Chris_in_Miami

I'll see your Ergonomic of Designing and raise you an accessories brand, which experts in each field and bicycle riding manias launch in the world market with common targets of Beyond Your Expectation! Add one more saddle to thicken the stewing miasma of knock-offs.