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Old 3 Speed spokes?

Old 01-15-10, 12:04 PM
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chico1st
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Old 3 Speed spokes?

The Harris site says this about the new 3-speed hubs
Updated version of the classic AW, with aluminum shell, thicker spoke flanges to fit modern spokes.
Does that mean spokes I buy now wont work with the old 3 speed hubs?
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Old 01-15-10, 12:12 PM
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When you are fitting a spoke to a hub the bend at the elbow needs to conform to the flange so that spoke lays flat against the flange... modern spokes have longer elbows to fit wider flanges and if you are going to do things right a spoke washer should be used to take up this extra space.
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Old 01-15-10, 12:31 PM
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is using that a big deal? If I dont use spoke washers how badly off am I looking at? I dont really want to bother...

side less important question:
anyways a washer isnt attached to the hub and therefore takes no load... no?
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Old 01-15-10, 12:55 PM
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Spoke washers stabilize the spoke head in situations where the spoke does not fit perfectly in the flange due to differences in diameter between the drilling and the spoke or because modern spokes are not designed to work with narrower flange widths as seen with older SA hubs.

Old steel shells did not need have flanges thick as alloy hubs to get the same degree of strength and vintage spokes have shorter bends... modern spokes are designed for the wider flanges on alloy hubs and for a time DT Swiss made their spokes with a longer elbow to facilitate faster wheel builds.

This was a bad idea as then the spoke would not lay along the flange properly without the use of a spoke washer.

They cost about 2 cents each so you are looking at less than 75 cents in extra cost if you are building an entire wheel.
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Old 01-15-10, 01:20 PM
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hmm and using them isnt hard??... i dont understand how they work if the spoke hole diameter is off... do you stick them in the hole?

where do i buy them?.. i cant find them on Harris or Niagra cycle. (im a canuck too so if you have a Canadian retailer that would be nice too)

Edit: hmmm... I have seen some posts now about people who use these on all their wheel builds... are they crazy or does this make sense.

Last edited by chico1st; 01-15-10 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 01-15-10, 01:34 PM
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Are you planning to re-use the old spokes with a new hub? That is generally ill advised- spokes are under constant loading and unloading cycles and can wear out. If you are building a wheel with a new hub, it makes sense to use new spokes. and a new rim for that matter. Hubs- especially old sturmey hubs- last forever with very little maintenance.
what's the background and reasoning for a new hub without using new spokes and/or rim?
 
Old 01-15-10, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by velo-orange View Post
Are you planning to re-use the old spokes with a new hub? That is generally ill advised- spokes are under constant loading and unloading cycles and can wear out. If you are building a wheel with a new hub, it makes sense to use new spokes. and a new rim for that matter.
Jobst Brandt says it's perfectly fine to re-use old spokes of they are in good shape, and points out a wheelset that has seen some incredible number of miles (100,000 ?) with many rim changes, using original spokes and NR hubs. Of course, most old wheelsets I find have rusty spokes and perfectly usable rims, as it seems few old bikes get enough miles to even wear through one pair of rims.
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Old 01-15-10, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MetinUz View Post
Jobst Brandt says it's perfectly fine to re-use old spokes of they are in good shape, and points out a wheelset that has seen some incredible number of miles (100,000 ?) with many rim changes, using original spokes and NR hubs. Of course, most old wheelsets I find have rusty spokes and perfectly usable rims, as it seems few old bikes get enough miles to even wear through one pair of rims.
Maybe so, but UCP spokes are more prone to rusting through than better quality stainless. YMMV. Maybe it really doesn't matter and the OP's spokes are in fine condition.

so, OP- what new S/A hub are you building up? Alloy shell 3sp? new 3sp fixed? a newer steel shelled AW?
 
Old 01-15-10, 02:12 PM
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no the issue is that I have old SA 3 speed hubs which I was planning to build using new spokes and rims.
The description of the new SA hubs says that they have a different flange size for new spokes.
Since I have the old hub and new spokes i thought somthing was amiss.
I still dont know where to find hub washers... but #2 brass washers from the hardware store are good someone said... do people agree?
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Old 01-15-10, 02:24 PM
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"modern spokes have longer elbows to fit wider flanges "

they also have wider elbows so it is easier for the machines to build wheels at a factory.
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Old 01-15-10, 02:28 PM
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Using spoke washers is easy... just slide them over the spoke before you slide it through the flange hole. The brass washer will seat to the inside of the flange hole and make the spoke's head far more stable which makes for a stronger wheel. any movement at the spoke head causes fatigue and fatigue leads to breakage.

Any good shop in Toronto should be able to hook you up or try the hardware store as a washer is a washer... most modern spokes are 2mm at the elbow while most flanges are drilled to 2.3 mm.

I have built up a lot of old English hubs with modern spokes as it is not just SA hubs that have really narrow flanges... using spoke washers will lead to a stronger and longer lasting wheel.

If the old spokes are in good condition I see no problem in using them although I do prefer stainless.
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Old 01-15-10, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by chico1st View Post
hmm and using them isnt hard??... i dont understand how they work if the spoke hole diameter is off... do you stick them in the hole?

where do i buy them?.. i cant find them on Harris or Niagra cycle. (im a canuck too so if you have a Canadian retailer that would be nice too)

Edit: hmmm... I have seen some posts now about people who use these on all their wheel builds... are they crazy or does this make sense.
I use spoke washers whenever I build up a steel flange hub. I've got some here, and I'm not far from you.
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Old 01-15-10, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
Using spoke washers is easy... just slide them over the spoke before you slide it through the flange hole. The brass washer will seat to the inside of the flange hole and make the spoke's head far more stable which makes for a stronger wheel. any movement at the spoke head causes fatigue and fatigue leads to breakage.

Any good shop in Toronto should be able to hook you up or try the hardware store as a washer is a washer... most modern spokes are 2mm at the elbow while most flanges are drilled to 2.3 mm.

I have built up a lot of old English hubs with modern spokes as it is not just SA hubs that have really narrow flanges... using spoke washers will lead to a stronger and longer lasting wheel.

If the old spokes are in good condition I see no problem in using them although I do prefer stainless.
You can also get them on the Internet. $2.50 for 100. https://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cg..._id=DT-SHW/100

[Edit] Just noticed these are out of stock. However, you can spend $18.50 and get 1000. https://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cg...item_id=DT-SHW
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Old 01-15-10, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by letsgetsandy View Post
"modern spokes have longer elbows to fit wider flanges "

they also have wider elbows so it is easier for the machines to build wheels at a factory.
I think I said that...

longer = wider

Dt Swiss changed their spokes back to their original profile as these longer / wider elbows pissed off a lot of wheelbuilders and lost them some market share because with these every wheel needed spke washers.
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Old 01-16-10, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by chico1st View Post
is using that a big deal? If I dont use spoke washers how badly off am I looking at? I dont really want to bother...

side less important question:
anyways a washer isnt attached to the hub and therefore takes no load... no?
Some years back, I built a 3-speed wheel without washers and started braking spokes almost immediately. I rebuilt the wheel with washers, and no problem.
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