forgeries?
 

I was reading today about harry butler forged hetchins:
http://www.hetchins.org/bogus-02.htm
apparently he had a habit of it.
Any other famous/interesting forgers or fakers out there? Stories? I know I've heard of faked colnagos but always without a backround story.

Magnum Bogus...So awesome! Still wouldn't kick one outa bed.

More ambitious examples of the Caleb variety.

-Kurt

This CR list post regarding the merits, or lack of, Dawes frames made me wonder about fakes:

"Hanging in the workshop of frame builder and enameller Rick Powell for many
years, and as far as I know still there, was a very drab and dusty Dawes
frame. When I eventually asked him who it belonged to, and why it was still
there, he pulled from the seat tube and gave me a hand written note, which I
still have. The frame was left for Rick one day when he wasn't there, and
the owner left the note with it to tell Rick what needed to be done. It
reads: Dawes, remove head badge, convert to curly, fit lamp bracket, gear
hanger, and tangs to forks. Red flam. Harry Butler.

Needless to say Rick would have nothing to do with it (or any other of
Harry's forgeries) and is still waiting for it to be collected. So obviously
there was one man at least who thought a Dawes was well enough made to pass
as a Hetchins. If anyone is interest in acquiring a Dawes Nearly Hetchins
model I can enquire for them."

Seems H. Butler wasn't overly concerned with hiding his methods, or even doing his dirty work himself.

Not forgeries, but on the "fakes" front, I see UO8s being sold/marketed as PX-10s all of the time. Had one a week or two in the local Craigs List, I finally had to flame the guy. He was asking $500 for a UO8 that he called a PX10, and it wasn't even a nice UO8.

How do you tell the difference?

Half chrome forks and stays, "Inoxydable sticker", and 531 sticker should all be present on a PX-10. A U-08 will have none of these features, save the half chrome fork. There might be other cues that miamijim, or Grand Bois, or poguemahone would like to elaborate on.

wonder why you would bother. I'm thinking about making a mixte frame similar to the Hetchins mixte that was posted recently, no way would I put their name on it. U.K. bikes seemed to put a strange value on brand. There was some discussion on the CR list recently that showed how pointlessly snobbish the U.K. racers could be. Then again, people will pay more for a Rivendell than they will for the frames of the people that make them.

I gather it hasn't been modified, correct? If it weren't on the other side of the pond, it'd make a nice - (surprise) - Dawes.

-Kurt

UO-8 will typically have the cheap red Simplex Prestige, cottered cranks, stamped dropouts and other things typical of a cheap bike. A lot of sellers call these PX-10s out of sheer ignorance, and I bet a lot of equally ignorant people get fooled.

Here's a fake PX10:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Early-70s-Peugeo...item335a16c74e

It's a PR10. Not a bad bike bike, but not worth nearly as much as a PX.

Strange things happen in workshops as well. My '74 Rauler has Colnago cutouts on the inside fork tangs (but Rauler pantos on the top of the shoulders). Given that Rauler was reputed to be a sub-contractor for Colnago and also pantographed their lugs for them, I'd guess Raul Gozzi would occasionally pull either a Colnago frame (or at least the lugs) and use them for his bikes. Mine is serial number 11.

At least that's my guess. I can't think of another explanation.

Its really obvious. But to the uninformed hipster buyer, any old Peugeot is a PX10.

No pump pegs on the downtube on a PX10.

I don't think the vast majority of these are anything other than willful self-deception on the part of the seller. They bought the bike years ago, remembered it as a "top of the line French racing bicycle", maybe did some online research (but not enough). Maybe a shop told them it was a PX. They figure they've got a gold mine and put it on Craigslist.

I see at least a couple a year. The last one was indistinct enough and promising enough I actually went to look at it. I brought along a PX, and after ascertaining the bike was indeed the ubiquitous UO, showed them the differences. They adjusted their ad rather quickly-- there was no real intent to decieve.

UOs are identified by their lugs, braze ons, "tube special allegre Peugeot" sticker, seatpost diameter (usually 25.4, although many UO posts are smaller and shimed to fit the bike; PX posts range a bit from 26.2-26.6), steel rims, cottered cranks, and several things I'm probably forgetting just now. If that sounds like a long list, it is, but they're all things that may not be readily apparent to a person who doesn't really like old bikes like we do.

I thus generally cut UO sellers who identify their wares as PXs some slack. With a few exceptions, they're simply poorly informed. Those few exceptions tend to be outright fraudsters who become belligerent when challenged. They mistake facts for a pissing contest for some reason.

Maybe so, but I've found that the majority of sellers are more then willing to pick a fight - even with stepped headlugs staring them in the face.

-Kurt

That is partly why I'm not a huge fan of peugeots, it practically takes an expert to tell them apart. I see them occasionally and my reaction is; "wow, that's either a very nice bike or it's run-of-the-mill". Another seller's unintentional misrepresentation I see occasionally is labeling a bike as "cinelli" because it says cinelli on the bottom bracket. One time it was because it had a cinelli saddle!

Windsor Professionals and Centurion Professionals are often confused with Cinelli. However, I wouldn't call them fakes or forgeries. They were certainly copies of Cinelli, and in the case Windsor were even fabricated by an ex-Cinelli employee, but there was no intent to misrepresent them. As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

It only becomes an issue when unscrupulous flippers remove the original decals and misrepresent them. However, if you know what to look for, you can tell the difference.

I agree, and I think those forgeries (no matter how elaborate) are less common than misinformation, such as the PX-10 discussion above.

None of this affects me much, though. I am also more of a rider than a collector, and I have a limited budget, so that means two things to me: I'm usually not going for the bikes that would be forged, and at the end of the day, as long as it rides nice and I paid a fair price for it, I'm content.