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For the love of English 3 speeds...

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For the love of English 3 speeds...

Old 09-05-23, 08:47 PM
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Old 09-06-23, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Ged117
Hi fellows, I'm working on a square taper conversion for my '60s Triumph three-speed. Trying to find the right sized 5 or 7 code spindle to use with the original cups so I can install my square taper aluminum crankset (I have a cool steel chainwheel which will look the part) - my local co-op is unfortunately short on 5 or 7 code spindles The one I did find was far too long and the chainline was unworkable. I think its the 5N or a 70mm Italian spindle I am looking for.

Anyone try this before? cudak888 I know you've done this or attempted with a single chainring crank - any insights?

Cheers
I believe JohnDThompson has done this.

Last edited by gna; 09-06-23 at 01:07 AM.
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Old 09-06-23, 06:32 AM
  #27253  
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Originally Posted by gna
I believe JohnDThompson has done this.
You said the spindle you found was way too long; did you test fit? That test fit would give you the symmetrical spindle length range, which you could use to get a code from Sheldon Brown's table. Cranks are converging on standard BB sizes if they're square taper, but you won't really know what you need until you try it with a known length for used stuff.
I'm doing my own square taper conversion, but on a Supercourse. The Sugino Maxy crank I used first needed 122.5 BB for a nearly perfect 42mm chainline, but the Specialites TA Alize crank needs a 103mm spindle and I'm still possibly going to be 1-2 mm away from 42mm. I had to use trial and error on the Sugino Crank but the TA crank recommends the bottom bracket needed for double and single chainring applications.
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Old 09-06-23, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam
You said the spindle you found was way too long; did you test fit? That test fit would give you the symmetrical spindle length range, which you could use to get a code from Sheldon Brown's table. Cranks are converging on standard BB sizes if they're square taper, but you won't really know what you need until you try it with a known length for used stuff.
I'm doing my own square taper conversion, but on a Supercourse. The Sugino Maxy crank I used first needed 122.5 BB for a nearly perfect 42mm chainline, but the Specialites TA Alize crank needs a 103mm spindle and I'm still possibly going to be 1-2 mm away from 42mm. I had to use trial and error on the Sugino Crank but the TA crank recommends the bottom bracket needed for double and single chainring applications.
We might be discussing two different spindles here. My Raleigh Wyoming touring bike needed a new spindle, but for a three speed, a think one needs a 7 spindle.
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Old 09-06-23, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by gna
We might be discussing two different spindles here. My Raleigh Wyoming touring bike needed a new spindle, but for a three speed, a think one needs a 7 spindle.
Originally Posted by Ged117
Hi fellows, I'm working on a square taper conversion for my '60s Triumph three-speed. Trying to find the right sized 5 or 7 code spindle to use with the original cups so I can install my square taper aluminum crankset (I have a cool steel chainwheel which will look the part) - my local co-op is unfortunately short on 5 or 7 code spindles The one I did find was far too long and the chainline was unworkable. I think its the 5N or a 70mm Italian spindle I am looking for.

Anyone try this before? cudak888 I know you've done this or attempted with a single chainring crank - any insights?

Cheers
Originally Posted by gna
I believe JohnDThompson has done this.
Originally Posted by Unca_Sam
You said the spindle you found was way too long; did you test fit? That test fit would give you the symmetrical spindle length range, which you could use to get a code from Sheldon Brown's table. Cranks are converging on standard BB sizes if they're square taper, but you won't really know what you need until you try it with a known length for used stuff.
I'm doing my own square taper conversion, but on a Supercourse. The Sugino Maxy crank I used first needed 122.5 BB for a nearly perfect 42mm chainline, but the Specialites TA Alize crank needs a 103mm spindle and I'm still possibly going to be 1-2 mm away from 42mm. I had to use trial and error on the Sugino Crank but the TA crank recommends the bottom bracket needed for double and single chainring applications.
​​​​​Sorry, ​gna I'm quoting the wrong person since Ged117 's post was asking for help. I guess I was trying to quote 'through' you?

I remember that our patron saint Sheldon Brown addressed a similar issue here. In a nutshell, the advice is to find a JIS 5 code spindle designating it as for an Italian bottom bracket and use 6mm balls in the bearings rather than 1/4 inch. This method, IMO, trades time for cash; you will spend time hunting for a unicorn spindle in exchange for not having to shell out for a Phil Wood BB and Raleigh-threaded mounting rings.
Since you're considering this over just buying the appropriate cartridge BB from Shimano/IRD/etc, I'm going to assume that you've confirmed that you have a Raleigh BB and your BB shell is 71mm wide. If you haven't confirmed that the threading is proprietary, please do so; you might end up saving yourself several headaches. All that said, if Phil and (out of production ) Velo-Orange aren't in the budget, you might want to consider a repair bottom bracket that ignores the threading. I took some time and couldn't find the answer to whether the sunlite repair BB designed for 68mm shells will stretch far enough to do a Raleigh BB, or if there are any designed around the italian standard.

Sheldon's last advice was to face the BB to 68mm and rethread the bottom bracket to the BSC threading. With a threadless repair bottom bracket maybe you could get away with just facing the BB shell to 68mm.
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Old 09-06-23, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam
You said the spindle you found was way too long; did you test fit? That test fit would give you the symmetrical spindle length range, which you could use to get a code from Sheldon Brown's table. Cranks are converging on standard BB sizes if they're square taper, but you won't really know what you need until you try it with a known length for used stuff.
I'm doing my own square taper conversion, but on a Supercourse. The Sugino Maxy crank I used first needed 122.5 BB for a nearly perfect 42mm chainline, but the Specialites TA Alize crank needs a 103mm spindle and I'm still possibly going to be 1-2 mm away from 42mm. I had to use trial and error on the Sugino Crank but the TA crank recommends the bottom bracket needed for double and single chainring applications.
Originally Posted by Unca_Sam
​​​​​Sorry, ​gna I'm quoting the wrong person since Ged117 's post was asking for help. I guess I was trying to quote 'through' you?

I remember that our patron saint Sheldon Brown addressed a similar issue here. In a nutshell, the advice is to find a JIS 5 code spindle designating it as for an Italian bottom bracket and use 6mm balls in the bearings rather than 1/4 inch. This method, IMO, trades time for cash; you will spend time hunting for a unicorn spindle in exchange for not having to shell out for a Phil Wood BB and Raleigh-threaded mounting rings.
Since you're considering this over just buying the appropriate cartridge BB from Shimano/IRD/etc, I'm going to assume that you've confirmed that you have a Raleigh BB and your BB shell is 71mm wide. If you haven't confirmed that the threading is proprietary, please do so; you might end up saving yourself several headaches. All that said, if Phil and (out of production ) Velo-Orange aren't in the budget, you might want to consider a repair bottom bracket that ignores the threading. I took some time and couldn't find the answer to whether the sunlite repair BB designed for 68mm shells will stretch far enough to do a Raleigh BB, or if there are any designed around the italian standard.

Sheldon's last advice was to face the BB to 68mm and rethread the bottom bracket to the BSC threading. With a threadless repair bottom bracket maybe you could get away with just facing the BB shell to 68mm.
Thank you sir for this explanation, much appreciated. The bike is one of the Sports clones - a Triumph three speed from the '60s. It has a 71mm shell. The VO threadless cartridge was my first idea - I used one successfully for a fixed gear Peugeot a few years ago. As you say its unobtanium now. I found a JIS Italian standard 5 spindle that might work - next thing is to find 6mm bearings. I'll update in this thread.
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Old 09-06-23, 11:49 PM
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Old 09-07-23, 04:46 AM
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Last night I just took ownership of a ~1951 Rudge Aero Clubman. I can't wait to get this up and running. Come to think of it, would it fit into the English 3 speed thread? Many were delivered with 4-speed hubs, some with 3-speed, and many with single-speed flip flop hubs. Anyway, it's a lovely old thing which I'll get to scrubbing with a toothbrush and some mild detergent tonight after work, then more this coming weekend. I'll follow up with photos ASAP.
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Old 09-07-23, 06:56 AM
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The No.125 '51 Aero Club was the Rudge brand's version of the 22 inch frame No. 25 Raleigh Clubman. It had the thin-type seat and chain stays. Reynolds 531 plain gauge tubing frame and fork, head tube was at 73 deg, seat tube at 71 deg. Fluted cranks with removable 3-bolt chain ring. It also shared the clip-style head set with option of having the no-bolt, smooth top stem. 1951 was after the move to the larger, 27 x 1 1/4 stainless rims from the old 26 inch club size. Fenders would have been white celluloid. Chrome socks front and back. Saddle would be the B17N. Any of the Sturmey Archer hub gears could be fitted, with the medium-ratio gears being a popular option for sport riding. Weight was quoted, without the optional saddle bag, at 25.5 pounds.
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Old 09-07-23, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by PhilFo
I'll follow up with photos ASAP.
Looking forward to the pictures…. Take lots- don’t be shy! 😎
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Old 09-07-23, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by gna
I believe JohnDThompson has done this.
Yes, I have, for my daughter's bike. I don't recall what spindle I used, and don't have the bike handy. Old picture:
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Old 09-07-23, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
Yes, I have, for my daughter's bike. I don't recall what spindle I used, and don't have the bike handy. Old picture:
If I remember correctly, you used standard 1/4" balls in the original cups with a "7" spindle.
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Old 09-07-23, 11:06 AM
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Tick..Tick..Tick and Oil in the AW Hub

I have been riding my overhauled '79 AW hub for 4 months and really liking it. Just last week I noticed a faint tick tick tick while pedaling. I believe the tick is normal and wondering if I had too much oil in the hub from the outset.
My hub has a lovely oily and dusty film all over it. I have been using a 75W 90 synthetic gear oil in the hub.
So today I added a few drops of oil in the hub and the tick is gone.
Too much oil?
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Old 09-07-23, 11:36 AM
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A SA hub requires a teaspoon of any motor oil once a year. Too much will soon spill out and cover everything in crud.
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Old 09-07-23, 11:59 AM
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The common AW should tick when pedaled in Normal (2d) and High (3d) gears. The sound comes from the low gear pawls being overtaken by the rest of the hub. When in Low (1st) the low gear pawls engage and are not overtaken, so they don't tick when pedaled in 1st.

The "tick" should be noticeable when riding, but should not have a tinny or metallic sound. The tick will become less pronounced if you oil the hub. If you can't hear the ticking at all, but the pawls still engage, it's a sign of over-oiling or grease getting into the low gear pawls.

The ticking will gradually return with use as the excess oil works its way out. A rag may be needed to prevent excess oil making a mess as it leaves the hub. Ride the hub but don't add oil for now.

If the pawls will not engage, the hub should be cleaned, and potentially opened and serviced. Lack of engagement is a sign of a contaminated hub or weak pawl springs.
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Old 09-07-23, 12:15 PM
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If you have already screwed the pooch i.e. foolishly put grease in it, too heavy oil or water based crud there is a hack. Get a can of WD-40 (relax,relax hear me out!) Squirt the WD -40 into the filler hole until it begins to spew out every which way. Spin, grind, rant for a good ten minutes. When everything is freed up lie the bike/wheel down overnight so the WD-40 drains out. Get a tablespoon of engine oil and pour into filler hole. Good to go!
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Old 09-07-23, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Marco99
I have been riding my overhauled '79 AW hub for 4 months and really liking it. Just last week I noticed a faint tick tick tick while pedaling. I believe the tick is normal and wondering if I had too much oil in the hub from the outset.
My hub has a lovely oily and dusty film all over it. I have been using a 75W 90 synthetic gear oil in the hub.
So today I added a few drops of oil in the hub and the tick is gone.
Too much oil?
75W90 gear lube is a bit heavy. Automatic transmission fluid works pretty well. Straight weight 30W engine oil works well too. The hub should spin easily, as well as the best bike hubs you've ever seen.
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Old 09-07-23, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilFo
Last night I just took ownership of a ~1951 Rudge Aero Clubman. I can't wait to get this up and running. Come to think of it, would it fit into the English 3 speed thread? Many were delivered with 4-speed hubs, some with 3-speed, and many with single-speed flip flop hubs. Anyway, it's a lovely old thing which I'll get to scrubbing with a toothbrush and some mild detergent tonight after work, then more this coming weekend. I'll follow up with photos ASAP.
A Rudge Aero Clubman is one of those rare bikes (at least in North America) that we all want to see and it definitely fits into this thread. Many photos welcome! I've got a '51 Sun Wasp that runs an FM four-speed. Plenty of appreciation for that 1930s to late 1950s era of British bikes and cycle sport riding / touring practices.
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Old 09-07-23, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by SirMike1983
The common AW should tick when pedaled in Normal (2d) and High (3d) gears. The sound comes from the low gear pawls being overtaken by the rest of the hub. When in Low (1st) the low gear pawls engage and are not overtaken, so they don't tick when pedaled in 1st.

The "tick" should be noticeable when riding, but should not have a tinny or metallic sound. The tick will become less pronounced if you oil the hub. If you can't hear the ticking at all, but the pawls still engage, it's a sign of over-oiling or grease getting into the low gear pawls.

The ticking will gradually return with use as the excess oil works its way out. A rag may be needed to prevent excess oil making a mess as it leaves the hub. Ride the hub but don't add oil for now.

If the pawls will not engage, the hub should be cleaned, and potentially opened and serviced. Lack of engagement is a sign of a contaminated hub or weak pawl springs.
The hub shifts perfectly, not a problem in the 4 months I've been using it. I did use synthetic grease in the outer bearings when I re-assembled the hub.
I guess I will clean the outside of the hub and wait for the tick to return. Thanks
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Old 09-07-23, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Marco99
The hub shifts perfectly, not a problem in the 4 months I've been using it. I did use synthetic grease in the outer bearings when I re-assembled the hub.
I guess I will clean the outside of the hub and wait for the tick to return. Thanks
The grease in the bearings is fine.

The heavy gear lube you are using is likely causing the hub to have a bit of drag and it is silencing the pawls. The gear lube certainly won't hurt it; my surmise is that in addition to being to heavy, there's also too much. So it will work its way out of the hub fairly quickly.
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Old 09-07-23, 02:16 PM
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If you do the WD-40 flush method the very light WD-40 solvent will remove any excess grease that may have soiled the pawls when it drains out overnight.
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Old 09-07-23, 03:04 PM
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The gear oil may cause problems if you ride in cold weather, but it will probably be fine. I've used synthetic 30W oil in hubs, as well as a 20W oil for electric motors:

Regular 3 -n-1 should be avoided.
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Old 09-07-23, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Marco99
The hub shifts perfectly, not a problem in the 4 months I've been using it. I did use synthetic grease in the outer bearings when I re-assembled the hub.
I guess I will clean the outside of the hub and wait for the tick to return. Thanks
A modern type "slick" grease in the outer bearings is fine. The main evil was when people would try to use the old school, sticky brown axle grease in there.

If the shifting and engagement are OK, ride the hub and the ticking will gradually return with use.
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Old 09-07-23, 08:12 PM
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I have been using a 75W 90 synthetic gear oil in the hub.


Excellent choice, Marco99! Gear oil for gears and all.

Fun fact: Gear oil and engine (sometimes called motor) oil viscosities are → graded ← at different temperatures, engines being hotter than transmissions. At the same temperature, SAE 75W-90 grade gear oil runs through a viscometer about the same as SAE 10W-40 grade engine oil.



...foolishly put grease in it...


Fun Fact: The Sturmey Factory has used NLGI #00 grease for lubricating the internal works since 1984, with NLGI #2 used for the axle bearings and labyrinth seals.

NLGI #00:





Watch the man, the legend, the one and only Arron Goss lubricate a modern RX-RD3 with NLGI #00 and NLGI #2 in these Sturmey-Archer factory videos:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...IEXobew41HHrq4

Sturmey recommends some Castrol lubricants; Aaron mentions them by name. When I overhaul a Sturmey of any age these days, I use locally available Super S Cotton Picker Spindle Grease (NLGI #00) and StaLube Marine Grease (NLGI #2). My Sturmeys don't leak.


PS: Kudos to Sturmey-Archer for identifying their lubricants and okaying the use of commercial equivalents. There's another IGH manufacturer who refuses to do so and demands one use their expensive, branded lubricants.

Last edited by tcs; 09-09-23 at 07:18 AM.
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Old 09-07-23, 08:22 PM
  #27275  
Tinker-er
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 368

Bikes: 1956 Rudge Sports; 1983 Univega Alpina Uno; 1981 Miyata 610; 1973 Raleigh Twenty; 1994 Breezer Lightning XTR; V4 Yuba Mundo aka "The Schlepper"; 1987 Raleigh "The Edge" Mountain Trials; 1951 Rudge Aero Clubman; 1978 Raleigh Competition GS

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A bit of an update about my Rudge Aero Clubman. Someone in the past installed what looks like a Wald cruiser riser type bar, into that beautiful chromed flat-top stem. They wrenched down on it quite a bit but also DRILLED A HOLE right in the top and stuck a small sheet metal screw through the top of the handlebar clamp and into the bar itself to prevent it from moving. This is disappointing and as a result I ordered a Titan stem to keep the build somewhat period correct.
This bike seems to be a mish-mash of sorts.
There's a bunch of contradictions: Cable pulley was on a clamp, even though this frame has the brazed-on pulley boss.
At one point someone was using center-pull calipers, as evidenced by the seatpost bolt cable stop seen on much later TI bikes. That said, the rear brake is a steel caliper from a Sports, no front brake.
Other things I've noticed are that the wheels don't match; the rear is a much later production Rigida 27x1-1/4 laced to a steel 1951 AW hub. The front wheel is a Normandy high-flange with wingnuts laced to a Rigida Chrolux.
Who made the cranks? Raleigh? They have a stamped N inside an oval depression on the inside of the crank arms. The arms are fluted and look nice, but the drive side pedal threads look to be nearly stripped. The really surprising thing is the hollow bottom bracket spindle. Both of the cups look nice and the spindle doesn't look worn. I think I'm going to replace the crank with a Williams B100 unit I have.
I'm going to set aside the wheels that the bike came with and build a set of 700c wheels around a pair of Normandy track hubs I'm wanting to put into service.
This isn't going to be a restoration at all. I'm going to get the frame as clean as I can and brighten up the chrome and paint a bit (not the Rudge transfers) with some Flitz, then build it up as a nice-weather bike. I want to keep the correct mounting for a set of mudguards, so while I like Velo Orange units, I may have to go with SKS "Bluemels" with the correct stays. As far as I can tell, I can't figure out a way to get VO mudguards on while keeping the proper mounting using a V-shaped stay for the rear.
Control of the bike will be with a GB Maes bar and a pair of GB Super Hood levers. I strayed with the age by a decade, but stuck to British made.
It may be heresy but I already have a 1" seatpost which is an American Classic, so that's what is going to hold up a B17 saddle.
Photos will be posted after I find my card reader so I can transfer the images of the bike as I received it last night.
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