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For the love of English 3 speeds...

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For the love of English 3 speeds...

Old 02-05-15, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
Preventing damage to the toggle chain is why they came out with these:

Oh. I bought a new one of those and it was touted as something to keep grease off my clothes. Cool to know.
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Old 02-05-15, 08:42 PM
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Sturmey-Archer Hubs, Adjustments

Here is mention of the 'pin' (indicator spindle), and it's adjustment.
Discussion of how to properly adjust the cable tension in relation to the spindle.

Last edited by Peugeotlover; 02-05-15 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 02-05-15, 09:37 PM
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When I picked up that Riva-Sport there were Sturmey Archer setup instructions included in the saddlebag.

They say to set the shift to second gear and then set the toggle chain so that the solid portion is even with the end of the axle.
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Old 02-05-15, 11:22 PM
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Thanks everyone, but I'm NOT having any problems shifting. I've read just about every SA instructional manual, Sheldon Brown, etc. So I'm not having problems shifting. When I asked about shifting before I just wanted to make sure that the way my bike is shifting is normal. I suspected it was, but just wanted to check with you all to make sure.

My question about indicator pin/toggle chain was more of a curiosity. I see these things in print, but no one can tell me WHY these things are said. Like why are toggle chains/indicator pins one of the most replaced parts? Do they bend? Do links kink up? Is it just a marketing ploy to get folks to buy unnecessary parts?

I still want to know if you must use the ball cage for the eight 1/4" ball bearings in the races? Have any of you used loose?
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Old 02-06-15, 07:04 AM
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The chain portion gets damaged. The plates of the links get torn or twisted. You might find these chains in bike shops that otherwise don't deal with three speeds. That's how common these breakages are.
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Old 02-06-15, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
I still want to know if you must use the ball cage for the eight 1/4" ball bearings in the races? Have any of you used loose?
I guess it's mostly a matter of not needing to as I've never seen that cage assembly needing to be replaced. You could use loose bearings, I suppose, if you needed to. Do you need to?
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Old 02-06-15, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
I still want to know if you must use the ball cage for the eight 1/4" ball bearings in the races? Have any of you used loose?
Here is an old thread on the subject.

The consensus seems to have been that:
A) loose wins
B) cages are an assembly convenience more than anything else
C) buy a bag of every size bearing that your bike needs. Just because.

Caveat: They may have been discussing the plastic cages. If you have metal ones in the hub, that could be different - I don't know.

Last edited by tbo; 02-06-15 at 08:19 AM.
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Old 02-06-15, 11:12 AM
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@nierner - no, I've already rebuilt this beauty and looks like someone's been in there or rarely ridden because the ball bearings looked NEW. I reused them as well as the cage. I've read and watched all there is about rebuilding these hubs and nobody ever mentions using loose bearings. I ask because I am a very curious person, and it helps me to understand why I'm doing something.
@noglider - ok, so it is the actual links that get damaged. The links on mine were all gummed up but I've cleaned & lubricated it. I ordered one from Universal Cycles and going there today to pick it up. I will compare the movement of links on it to the original one to see differences. If no differences then will keep the original installed for now.
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Old 02-06-15, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
I still want to know if you must use the ball cage for the eight 1/4" ball bearings in the races? Have any of you used loose?
No, the Schwinn Approved overhaul was to use/re-use the OEM caged bearings.
I've never seen one that needed replacement: good enough is indeed good enough.

-Bandera
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Old 02-06-15, 11:45 AM
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Perhaps this link has been posted before or is by a forum member, but I found it interesting and well done. A good reference source with additional links.

English Roadster Bicycles
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Old 02-06-15, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
@nierner - no, I've already rebuilt this beauty and looks like someone's been in there or rarely ridden because the ball bearings looked NEW. I reused them as well as the cage. I've read and watched all there is about rebuilding these hubs and nobody ever mentions using loose bearings. I ask because I am a very curious person, and it helps me to understand why I'm doing something.
There is likely not a lot of difference with loose or caged. Generally I find that if the hub is not about as free as a Campy rear hub that I need to figure out why.
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Old 02-06-15, 01:33 PM
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I used loose bearing for the AW on my Sports. I could not find new caged locally but had a source for high quality loose bearing. You wind up using more bearings than with caged which is a good thing except from a drag perspective which not a concern for my riding style (slow, very slow)..... I replaced all of the bearing on my bike when I bought it. my 2 cents..
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Old 02-06-15, 01:43 PM
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Questions about 650A to 700C conversion, Raleigh Sports

People sometimes speak of converting their Raleigh Sports bicycles from 650A, ISO 590 rims to 700C. I'm thinking of doing this with an old Sports that has the traditional 40/32 spoke configuration. When people do this, do they keep the 40/32 configuration, and, if so, what rims are a good choice? There don't seem to be a lot of options in 700C 40 hole rims at a reasonable price.

How does the fit with the frame turn out for various 700C tire options? Judging from the estimates in various bike computer manuals, 700C 25mm to 28mm tires are probably about the same diameter as 590 X 35 (26 X 1 3/8). And, given the fact that the big fat Panaracer tires fit fine, I'd expect to be able to go to maybe 32 with the 700C tires and still squeeze under the front fender. But, there isn't all that much room. Is there an opinion on what the widest tire is that will work?

Going to a wider rim like the Sun Rhyno as compared to a CR18 -- wouldn't that tend to lessen the OD of a 32mm, or so, tire?

Does anybody try a 100mm front hub as compared to the 90mm (I think) that the Sports normally uses? If so, how does that work out?
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Old 02-06-15, 02:02 PM
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Here are mine three speeds, hers its a 1971 Hercules, his its a 1965 Armstrong. I havent taken them for a ride yet
Attached Images
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Old 02-06-15, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by desconhecido
People sometimes speak of converting their Raleigh Sports bicycles from 650A, ISO 590 rims to 700C. I'm thinking of doing this with an old Sports that has the traditional 40/32 spoke configuration. When people do this, do they keep the 40/32 configuration, and, if so, what rims are a good choice? There don't seem to be a lot of options in 700C 40 hole rims at a reasonable price.

How does the fit with the frame turn out for various 700C tire options? Judging from the estimates in various bike computer manuals, 700C 25mm to 28mm tires are probably about the same diameter as 590 X 35 (26 X 1 3/8). And, given the fact that the big fat Panaracer tires fit fine, I'd expect to be able to go to maybe 32 with the 700C tires and still squeeze under the front fender. But, there isn't all that much room. Is there an opinion on what the widest tire is that will work?

Going to a wider rim like the Sun Rhyno as compared to a CR18 -- wouldn't that tend to lessen the OD of a 32mm, or so, tire?

Does anybody try a 100mm front hub as compared to the 90mm (I think) that the Sports normally uses? If so, how does that work out?
That fork is pretty stiff! I would hate to have to put a wider hub in there.

If you plan to use the original hubs you are stuck with the 32/40h thing. SA AW hubs were used on American bikes so there are 36hole versions.

The main thing that has stopped me from doing this is some of the charm of the ride will be lost. 700c wheels usually run with a smaller patch and a higher pressure, which will result in a loss of ride quality. I think there may be room inside the fenders but I think you will also have issues with the brakes. So many things get changed I just figure start with a different frame...
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Old 02-06-15, 02:21 PM
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A different model rim of the same BSD should not change the OD of the tire at all. If it did, things would be very wrong.
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Old 02-06-15, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
A different model rim of the same BSD should not change the OD of the tire at all. If it did, things would be very wrong.
As you change the width of the rim, the effective OD of the tire has to change. The arc length of the tire from bead to bead remains almost constant (I think it won't change measurably, if at all, assuming slow speed) . Consider a rim that's really wide to one that's really narrow using the same tire. If you consider the arc length to be constant, it's impossible for the tire at the center of the rim to be as far above the BSD with the wide rim as compared to the narrow. A rhyno Lite is 22 mm and a Mavic Open Pro is 15mm. Put a 23 mm tire on each and I think you'll be able to measure a difference in diameter when inflated -- if the tire doesn't blow off the Sun rim, that is. A CR18 is 17.5 mm. I think if you put 25 mm tires on a CR18 and compared to a 22 mm Rhyno that you'd be able to detect a difference. Probably with a 32 mm tire, not so much. But that's the question I'm asking.

I know that a 23 tire on an ISO 22 mm rim is a little out there, but not much more out there than an H Plus Son TB14 with a 23mm tire and that's what they say is a good thing to do. They even tout the flat tire effect it provides.

edited:

Arc length is probably the wrong term to use. What I mean is the path length of the curve that the tire follows from bead to bead.

Last edited by desconhecido; 02-06-15 at 02:59 PM. Reason: terminology
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Old 02-06-15, 02:55 PM
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Right. I didn't think about how the width of a rim affects the OD of the tire.
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Old 02-06-15, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Salubrious
That fork is pretty stiff! I would hate to have to put a wider hub in there.

If you plan to use the original hubs you are stuck with the 32/40h thing. SA AW hubs were used on American bikes so there are 36hole versions.

The main thing that has stopped me from doing this is some of the charm of the ride will be lost. 700c wheels usually run with a smaller patch and a higher pressure, which will result in a loss of ride quality. I think there may be room inside the fenders but I think you will also have issues with the brakes. So many things get changed I just figure start with a different frame...
Yeah, I know. It's just a thought experiment at the moment. I'm going to have to rebuild the wheels as the original steel rims are in pretty crappy condition and I just have a problem putting crappy rims back on a bike that I put a lot of effort into cleaning up. So, if I have to rebuild the wheels with new rims anyway, if I go 700C I end up with more tire options. Ride quality, for me, is not that much of an issue. I rode the RAGBRAI across Iowa with 28 mm tires on CR18 rims and never wanted for a softer ride. The bike I ride most recently has 25 mm tires at 90 to 100 psi and it's fine, in my opinion. I think the brakes will be fine. There are those Tektro long reach brakes with nuts that will work , I think, and at least one of the Raleigh steel brakes on this bike appears to be damaged beyond repair.

So, I know people do this conversion and as it appears unlikely that I will go to the trouble and expense of keeping this bike close to original, I'm considering it. If I do, probably the easiest thing to do would be to get a 36 hole AW hub and go 36/36 or 36/32 with polished CR18 rims. 40 hole 700C rims, as far as I can tell, are just not that common.
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Old 02-06-15, 04:55 PM
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Seems to me Velocity makes one.

The issue with the brakes would be that they would have too much reach.
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Old 02-06-15, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
The chain portion gets damaged. The plates of the links get torn or twisted. You might find these chains in bike shops that otherwise don't deal with three speeds. That's how common these breakages are.
I got knocked off my Elswick Hopper at speed and I sanded my toggle chain clean in half as I slid on the road before I came to a halt. 2nd time I've destroyed one that way!
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Old 02-06-15, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by desconhecido
So, I know people do this conversion and as it appears unlikely that I will go to the trouble and expense of keeping this bike close to original, I'm considering it. If I do, probably the easiest thing to do would be to get a 36 hole AW hub and go 36/36 or 36/32 with polished CR18 rims. 40 hole 700C rims, as far as I can tell, are just not that common.
36-hole Sturmey Archer hubs seem much more common than 40-hole 700c rims. The latter are out there--I snagged one on eBay last week! And I was the only bidder.
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Old 02-06-15, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
36-hole Sturmey Archer hubs seem much more common than 40-hole 700c rims. The latter are out there--I snagged one on eBay last week! And I was the only bidder.
Neal, what are you building?
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Old 02-06-15, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
Neal, what are you building?
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Old 02-06-15, 05:50 PM
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@nlerner:
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