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For the love of English 3 speeds...

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For the love of English 3 speeds...

Old 07-07-15, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver
The seatpost is a very small 25.4 and there is an inner seat tube that the outer frame is wrapped around... the oversized tubes make this a really strong bicycle.

The construction quality is rather good and it is a very nice riding bicycle... they appear to be fairly uncommon and suspect they were not produced in high numbers while the folding version is easier to find.

I would avoid the folding model as the clamp just isn't up to par.
That's pretty cool. So, there's a folding Saffron, or is the folder a different model like the Twenty?
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Old 07-07-15, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by browngw
@arex Wonderful job.
Thanks...this has been a huge learning experience for me. I've wrenched on my other bikes, but this is the first bike I've built from the frame up, and getting everything to work together was both educational and frustrating. I couldn't have done it without Sheldon Brown and the help of people here to get me past the tough points.
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Old 07-07-15, 07:35 PM
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that's really nice
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Old 07-08-15, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by jman0war
Shoot.
It's too late i think.
I've already covered it with 2 thick coats of Dubbin, and have now moved onto Brooks Proofhide.

edit:
Hold on, that Effax Leather Balsam has beeswax too.
effax | effax® Leather-Balm

Yes, it does. I thought it worked fine on my old dried out Brooks saddle. But my wife tells me that re-hydration works best with conditioner only.
I just found the bottle of stuff she was talking about. It's pure neatsfoot oil. She does know more about leather than I do. Usually, she's right, but I won't admit it.
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Old 07-08-15, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by BigChief
Yes, it does. I thought it worked fine on my old dried out Brooks saddle. But my wife tells me that re-hydration works best with conditioner only.
I just found the bottle of stuff she was talking about. It's pure neatsfoot oil. She does know more about leather than I do. Usually, she's right, but I won't admit it.
Neatsfoot oil.
Ah, there's actually a thread around here and ppl were saying not to use that stuff.

Anyway, i've switched to Brooks Proofhide and am not noticing any difference insofar as the way the leather looks and feels at this point.
But i'll be patient.
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Old 07-08-15, 10:06 AM
  #7681  
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Originally Posted by jman0war
Neatsfoot oil.
Ah, there's actually a thread around here and ppl were saying not to use that stuff.

Anyway, i've switched to Brooks Proofhide and am not noticing any difference insofar as the way the leather looks and feels at this point.
But i'll be patient.
I know lots of folks that swear by pure Neatsfoot oil for equestrian saddles and harnesses. My understanding is that there is another grade of oil that is a blend of pure Neatsfoot and something else. Maybe a horse lover among the group could elaborate.
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Old 07-08-15, 10:17 AM
  #7682  
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Not a horse lover, but a full-grain leather shoe lover.

Basic idea is that oil (neatsfoot, most leather conditoners) is a better conditioner than a wax-based product like Proofride. Oils penetrate into the leather whereas waxes are more top-coats. You want to be careful to not over-condition a leather by dumping tons of oil-based product onto it. Too much oil saturation can cause damage just like too little. (Leather can be overly softened on something like a tensioned saddle or even become rancid.) If deep conditioning is needed, giving the treated leather a few days to absorb before applying a wax-based product is a good idea. Brush off any excess oil that will come out after a day or two of sitting before applying a wax based product.

Personally, I only use a conditioner on saddles when they are deep need of restoration having sat mistreated for many years. When I do I like Bick4 -- its cheap, non-greasy, color-neutral and works well. I'll apply a bit of wax based product on my leather saddles once a year or so to help with weatherproofing. (Rather than penetrating a wax tends to stay on top to help seal out water/grime.) Here I'm not too picky: VO saddle care wax, Proofride, or Sno-Seal. A little goes a long way so costs is rather moot point, but if you're value conscious Sno-Seal is fine.
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Old 07-08-15, 11:57 AM
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Here's the thread I found whereby someone was saying to not use Neatsfoot Oil:
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...er-saddle.html
Basically they state that if the leather is cracked, softening the leather will only weaken things more.

Regardless I'm not sure what I should do at this point.
I've done 2 thick coats of Dubbin and a pretty good layer of Proofhide.
Am i too late to try a conditioner?
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Old 07-08-15, 12:45 PM
  #7684  
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Originally Posted by jmeb
Basic idea is that oil (neatsfoot, most leather conditoners) is a better conditioner than a wax-based product like Proofride. Oils penetrate into the leather whereas waxes are more top-coats. You want to be careful to not over-condition a leather by dumping tons of oil-based product onto it. Too much oil saturation can cause damage just like too little. [. . .] I'm not too picky: VO saddle care wax, Proofride, or Sno-Seal. A little goes a long way so costs is rather moot point, but if you're value conscious Sno-Seal is fine.
I'd avoid oil based conditioners due to the risk of overly softening the leather. SnoSeal is nice because it's beeswax dissolved in a volatile carrier. The carrier allows the beeswax to penetrate deep into the leather, and then evaporates out, leaving only the beeswax.

Last edited by JohnDThompson; 07-08-15 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 07-08-15, 12:47 PM
  #7685  
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Originally Posted by jman0war
Regardless I'm not sure what I should do at this point.
I've done 2 thick coats of Dubbin and a pretty good layer of Proofhide.
Am i too late to try a conditioner?
I'd say leave well enough alone at this point. You've already applied more stuff than I do in years on my leather saddles. Any more and you risk permanent damage.
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Old 07-08-15, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by arex
That's pretty cool. So, there's a folding Saffron, or is the folder a different model like the Twenty?
The folding version is called "Compact"... it has a hinge that is similar to lesser folders that were widely produced in the east and in Italy during the 70's and these do not compare to the R20 hinge.
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Old 07-09-15, 10:52 PM
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Here's an update on my Raleigh Twenty. Bought NOS SA rear hub & Raleigh (SA) front hub & laced to Velocity Aeroheat 28h rims, straight gauge ss spokes. Just received the Primo Comet's in 20" x 1 3/8" tires, and mounted those today. I ordered Tektro 800A front & rear brakes because the original Weinmann 1080 type were way too long. I thought about using the old steel brake calipers from my Phillips, but I actually reinstalled them onto the Phillips and they'll stay there.

Still working on the Pletscher rack & de-rusting the chrome fenders, so here it is so far. Don't mind the blue tape holding the rear brake cable out of the way.


Raleigh Twenty In Progress by velocivixen, on Flickr

Front 20" (451) Velocity Aeroheat by velocivixen, on Flickr

Temporary front brake R20 by velocivixen, on Flickr


Velocity AeroHeat 20" (451) by velocivixen, on Flickr
Tread Primo Comet 20" x 1 3/8" by velocivixen, on Flickr
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Old 07-09-15, 11:32 PM
  #7688  
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No, not really the driver turned right on a red and hit my right knee as well as the rear of my bike. Everything had slight bends even my brooks saddle. i miss riding a three speed. I had to wear a leg brace for about 12 weeks and physical therapy for 8 weeks, I tore my MCL and had a grade 2 sprain in my ACL. Back to riding but really want a 3 speed.

Originally Posted by arex
Were you able to scavenge anything from the wreckage?
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Old 07-10-15, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
Here's an update on my Raleigh Twenty. Bought NOS SA rear hub & Raleigh (SA) front hub & laced to Velocity Aeroheat 28h rims, straight gauge ss spokes. Just received the Primo Comet's in 20" x 1 3/8" tires, and mounted those today. I ordered Tektro 800A front & rear brakes because the original Weinmann 1080 type were way too long. I thought about using the old steel brake calipers from my Phillips, but I actually reinstalled them onto the Phillips and they'll stay there.

Still working on the Pletscher rack & de-rusting the chrome fenders, so here it is so far. Don't mind the blue tape holding the rear brake cable out of the way
That is turning out nicely. Good job. What's it like to ride? Never had a chance to ride one.
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Old 07-10-15, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
Here's an update on my Raleigh Twenty. Bought NOS SA rear hub & Raleigh (SA) front hub & laced to Velocity Aeroheat 28h rims, straight gauge ss spokes. Just received the Primo Comet's in 20" x 1 3/8" tires, and mounted those today. I ordered Tektro 800A front & rear brakes because the original Weinmann 1080 type were way too long. I thought about using the old steel brake calipers from my Phillips, but I actually reinstalled them onto the Phillips and they'll stay there.

Still working on the Pletscher rack & de-rusting the chrome fenders, so here it is so far. Don't mind the blue tape holding the rear brake cable out of the way.


Raleigh Twenty In Progress by velocivixen, on Flickr

; (451) Velocity Aeroheat by velocivixen, on Flickr

front brake R20 by velocivixen, on Flickr


Velocity AeroHeat 20" (451) by velocivixTread Primo Comet 20" x 1 3/8" by velocivixen, on Flickr
Looking good. Funny how they and other 3 speeds seem a bit naked without the chainguard and fenders. I've been replacing the steel rims on a number of 3 speeds I've found. The rims were all rotted inside and sounded like maracas. It is one of the most noticeable upgrades I think...shaving almost 2 pounds for the larger wheels while one is at it, too.
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Old 07-10-15, 08:53 AM
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@Big Chief - so far it puts a smile on my face. The larger wheels and the thinner tires makes it roll a long way while coasting, and it's a lot more nimble. There's a plastic bushing at the top instead of the top race of a regular headset, apparently to dampen the steering. You can tell it's a little different but is subtle. The only thing that bothers me is that the Q factor has both feet close to the center of the bike and I wish they were a little wider. I'm not set on changing to a cotterless crankset, as I like the heron's head, so for now I'll just deal.

As an aside, my spouse, who rarely rides my bikes unless I insist, took it on a test ride last night and when he pulled into the driveway had a big grin on his face. That says a lot.
@Narhay - unfortunately the chain guard is both twisted & dented, and my metal working "skills" have not improved it. So the crank arm hits the guard where it's deformed. Yes, the chrome fenders are heavy. Heck, the kickstand prop weighs 10+ ounces!

Last edited by Velocivixen; 07-10-15 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 07-10-15, 02:58 PM
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Haven't had any time to even look at the Raleigh I bought at the show on the weekend.
It was sold as a 1946 - have to verify that as I work on it.
Hoping to start on it tonight and over the weekend.







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Old 07-10-15, 07:17 PM
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@Slash5 - what a great set of bones to work on. Will you leave the paint as is?


On my Raleigh Twenty front the Tektro 800A rear brake is a bit too short. So I took the original front brake and was able to use it on the rear. Doesn't stop the bike but oh well. A drop-bolt may be in my future.
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Old 07-10-15, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Slash5
Haven't had any time to even look at the Raleigh I bought at the show on the weekend.
It was sold as a 1946 - have to verify that as I work on it.
Hoping to start on it tonight and over the weekend.
That's a very cool one. I agree that it's likely 1940s, given the trigger style and seat tube decal. Looking forward to seeing what date is stamped on the rear hub.
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Old 07-10-15, 09:00 PM
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I think I will try some of that rust remover everyone talks about on a hidden spot, maybe on the BB or underside of a chain stay and see how it looks afterwards. Assuming that works OK I'll do the rust spots. After it's cleaned up, I'd like to put something on to protect it but I think it would look wrong to use anything shiny/glossy.
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Old 07-11-15, 07:37 AM
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I think a good coat of quality wax after you've cleaned it up will do the trick - yes you have to reapply regularly but it will give you a chance to go over the bike and check nuts and bolts. There's a lot of advice on how to clean up that paint - it may come back much better than you expect.

Interested in the hub as well....I have a 50's hub with a metal oil port that has a flip up cap, and of course several later hubs with the plastic cap, but my 40's hub was missing the top portion and I had always thought it was a flip up cap, but yours appears to have an oil port with a spring loaded ball bearing as the "cap". Would love to see more detail when you get the chance.
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Old 07-11-15, 01:23 PM
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A nice Sports that found its way to my shop.

20150711_143734 by flog00, on Flickr

20150711_143752 by flog00, on Flickr

20150711_143803 by flog00, on Flickr
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Old 07-11-15, 09:15 PM
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Flog00, calling it nice is an understatement. It's a beauty!! Great condition.
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Old 07-11-15, 10:55 PM
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@Velocivixen, you can lengthen the reach of the caliper by bending the arms out with a big adjustable wrench. I've done this, and it works.
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Old 07-12-15, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Slash5
I think I will try some of that rust remover everyone talks about on a hidden spot, maybe on the BB or underside of a chain stay and see how it looks afterwards. Assuming that works OK I'll do the rust spots. After it's cleaned up, I'd like to put something on to protect it but I think it would look wrong to use anything shiny/glossy.
Just my opinion. Considering the rarity of this bike, I would just clean and wax the paint. On the much more common, later Sports, I will do things like use polishing compound to bring up the color and luster and even touch up rust spots with new paint. But I think this bike deserves more of a museum type preservation. I would however clean the rust off chrome parts and seal them with a wax finish. Great bike, congrats on a super find.
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