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For the love of English 3 speeds...

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For the love of English 3 speeds...

Old 04-12-16, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
I "adopted" "Miss Molly" a likely 1972 Raleigh Twenty in almost new all original condition. Woman bought it from her neighbor whose husband had passed away. He took it in their RV and rode it around while traveling. She replaced the brake pads, installed Schwalbe 20" x 1.5 tires (406 - smaller 20" wheels), repacked the lower headset and front wheel hub. She bought a cotter press but could not get the cotters out, so she wanted to sell it. There was a torn up sticker on it from "Dicks" bicycle shop in Vancouver, WA, which no longer exists, so it's a local bike.

Chainring chrome is spotless with no rust or wear on the teeth, and bottom bracket spindle & races are pristine, however there was a ball bearing "half" inside - the other half fell out when she was working on the bike. Never knew ball bearings could break in half. She had dripped Tri-flo down the seat tube to get some sort of lubrication into the bottom bracket.

It definitely needs new cables, but I really want to keep the housings because they are like new. Brakes will be alright, but with the shifter I'll either have to use JB Weld or use a clamp on end. I wish I could get some lube in there, but can't, so ...


"Miss Molly" R20 by velocivixen, on Flickr

R20 Chainwheel by velocivixen, on Flickr

R20 Bottom Bracket Spindle by velocivixen, on Flickr

Bearing Race Fixed Cup by velocivixen, on Flickr
Wow, I've never seen a nicer 20! Since you mentioned it and since I've had good results from JB Weld in the past, I used it with a piece of 3/32" brass tubing instead of silver solder on my Rudge shifter cable. I rode that bike every day this winter...when it wasn't raining...in Florida and it's holding up fine. This makes it much easier to avoid those clunky pinch bolt adapters.
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Old 04-12-16, 04:05 PM
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@arex - it's all done and together. I couldn't get a caliper in there but from the face of the fixed cup to the center of the chainring, where it slides onto the spindle looks to be about 5? or so mm. That's just an eyeball guesstimate though.
@BigChief - yeah, I'm leaning that way. I did that with my Phillips. The brake cables were rusty.

Cable Tip
Vintage Brake Cable Tip by velocivixen, on Flickr

Chain guard. Very shiny.
R20 Chain Protector by velocivixen, on Flickr


Here's the chain side (back side) of the chain guard. Not a scratch.

Raleigh Twenty Chain Guard by velocivixen, on Flickr
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Old 04-12-16, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Loose Chain
So you are saying brake levers in the 60s and back were solid steel? I do not seem to recall this on my former 3 speed. Interesting.

J
Exactly. I have a pair of orphan brakes with solid steel levers, a couple of bikes with formed steel levers (very beefy though), and a later model with Weinmann alloy calipers and levers.
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Old 04-12-16, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
@arex - it's all done and together. I couldn't get a caliper in there but from the face of the fixed cup to the center of the chainring, where it slides onto the spindle looks to be about 5? or so mm. That's just an eyeball guesstimate though.
Dang...so, what do I have? I'm quite certain I have the cups adjusted correctly...the fixed cup is flush with the end of the shell, and the adjustable cup doesn't stick out any further than the lockring. I did replace the balls, which is the only thing that's physically different...1/4", nothing weird.

I can only assume that the crank was manufactured wrong, with the hole for the cotter too far to the outside.
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Old 04-12-16, 05:37 PM
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@arex - would you consider posting some pictures? I don't really know what you mean. Did you remove your fixed cup? Mine stayed in - was painted so no need to remove. Just removed everything from the other side.

Please post close ups. Changing ball bearings shouldn't cause problems. I assume it was fine prior to disassembly?
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Old 04-12-16, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
@arex - would you consider posting some pictures? I don't really know what you mean. Did you remove your fixed cup? Mine stayed in - was painted so no need to remove. Just removed everything from the other side.

Please post close ups. Changing ball bearings shouldn't cause problems. I assume it was fine prior to disassembly?
Yes, I removed the fixed cup. Things were so heavily gummed-up and nasty that I had to open things up to muck it out. It was hard to turn before I took it apart, but I attributed it to just being old and filthy, not really thinking anything was wrong until I tried putting everything back together. The inside of the crank (facing the cup) was heavily scarred up when I took it apart, so I can only assume this was a problem from the start, though I have trouble believing it was allowed to leave the factory or the bike shop like this.










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Old 04-12-16, 10:21 PM
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Please forgive me if I'm stating the otherwise obvious, but could the spindle be installed in the wrong direction? Shorter non-drive side on the drive side?
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Old 04-12-16, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ChimChim
Please forgive me if I'm stating the otherwise obvious, but could the spindle be installed in the wrong direction? Shorter non-drive side on the drive side?
That's exactly what I was thinking. If it was in there with the short side on the drive side it would cause the inner face of the chain ring perhaps scrape the part of the fixed cup that is raised (part where tools grab onto). If you put it together the way you took it apart, then the spindle would still be in the wrong way.

I measured red my spindle this morning when I reassembled and there was maybe 8mm or so difference in the sides. There's gotta be a simple solution to this.
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Old 04-12-16, 10:36 PM
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Long end is on the drive side. I even tried the crank on the non-drive side, and it doesn't even remotely line up with the cotter slot.
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Old 04-12-16, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by arex
Long end is on the drive side. I even tried the crank on the non-drive side, and it doesn't even remotely line up with the cotter slot.
So you are saying that when you slide the chainring onto the spindle on the drive side, and the end of the spindle is generally flush with the edge of the crank arm, the inside of the chainring is that close to the fixed cup? That's odd. What the clearance like on the crankarm on the NDS?

I dont know. Hmm....what do you think is happening?

Maybe @FBinNY will comment. He's seen everything and is a great resource.

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Old 04-13-16, 04:18 AM
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I was thinking that perhaps the fixed cup wasn't fully seated, but your experiment with the aftermarket crank seems to rule that out and place the blame squarely on the chainring/crank assembly. From Velocivixen's photo, this looks to be the very same 46T chainring/crank used on the Sports model. Sports cranks measure 6 1/2" (crank hole centerline to pedal hole centerline). If they are the same, you could find one on eBay.
edit
wait a minute...that's on backwards. The fixed cup should be on the drive side. How could that be? The fixed cup is left hand threaded and adjustable cup is right handed. I'm seeing the adjustable cup locknut behind the chainwheel in the picture. That shouldn't be there!
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Old 04-13-16, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by BigChief
I was thinking that perhaps the fixed cup wasn't fully seated, but your experiment with the aftermarket crank seems to rule that out and place the blame squarely on the chainring/crank assembly. From Velocivixen's photo, this looks to be the very same 46T chainring/crank used on the Sports model. Sports cranks measure 6 1/2" (crank hole centerline to pedal hole centerline). If they are the same, you could find one on eBay.
edit
wait a minute...that's on backwards. The fixed cup should be on the drive side. How could that be? The fixed cup is left hand threaded and adjustable cup is right handed. I'm seeing the adjustable cup locknut behind the chainwheel in the picture. That shouldn't be there!
That'd mean that I would've cross-threaded both sides...but they both screwed in without issue.
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Old 04-13-16, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
So you are saying that when you slide the chainring onto the spindle on the drive side, and the end of the spindle is generally flush with the edge of the crank arm, the inside of the chainring is that close to the fixed cup? That's odd. What the clearance like on the crankarm on the NDS?

I dont know. Hmm....what do you think is happening?

Maybe @FBinNY will comment. He's seen everything and is a great resource.
I'll have another lookit when I get off work tonight. I sure hope it's not crossthreaded.
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Old 04-13-16, 07:38 AM
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I don't think it would be possible to crossthread LH and RH threads. I'm thinking that the bottom bracket was machined backwards at the factory and assembled with a who cares attitude. But the cups are positively on the wrong sides. It may be possible to gain some clearance between the chainring and adjustable cup by grinding the flat on the shaft a bit longer so you could shift the chainring crank out some.
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Old 04-13-16, 07:58 AM
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Sorry if I'm seeing it wrong, but doesn't the 1st. picture show the fixed cup (with scarring) on the drive side? Of course, my old eyes may be wrong
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Old 04-13-16, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Jawihan
Sorry if I'm seeing it wrong, but doesn't the 1st. picture show the fixed cup (with scarring) on the drive side? Of course, my old eyes may be wrong
No, I just flipped the bike over to take a pic of the fixed cup.
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Old 04-13-16, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by arex
Long end is on the drive side. I even tried the crank on the non-drive side, and it doesn't even remotely line up with the cotter slot.
Well the inverse cup thing has to be explored, otherwise you need a different spindle.

I ran into the inverse BB thread on a Claud Butler once; you aren't the only one to see that FWIW.
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Old 04-13-16, 10:15 AM
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@arex- so I'm a little confused, so forgive me if this has been fully explained (my brain is on coffee & hasn't kicked in yet). On my R20's the fixed cup, on the drive side is screwed into the frame 1-2mm farther than the one in your photo. So, can you make your fixed cup go in farther? On the NDS, on my bike, the cup goes in, then the lock ring, when tightened there are no visible threads from the adjustable cup showing. I went back to look and the "bulge" part on the inside face of the chain ring is about 1-2mm from the raised, tool flats, on the fixed cup.
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Old 04-13-16, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
@arex- so I'm a little confused, so forgive me if this has been fully explained (my brain is on coffee & hasn't kicked in yet). On my R20's the fixed cup, on the drive side is screwed into the frame 1-2mm farther than the one in your photo. So, can you make your fixed cup go in farther? On the NDS, on my bike, the cup goes in, then the lock ring, when tightened there are no visible threads from the adjustable cup showing. I went back to look and the "bulge" part on the inside face of the chain ring is about 1-2mm from the raised, tool flats, on the fixed cup.
The fixed cup (NDS) is in as far as I could get it to go...I was going full silverback on it, too. I got it nearly flush with the edge of the shell. However, that would mean that the drive-side cup would have to be moved out that much further...there'd still be the same amount of spindle sticking out.

I'm gonna tear it all down again tonight, and really pay attention to what is where, rather than just assuming everything was screwing into where it ought to. I didn't even think to question the fixed cup being on the NDS. If the BB was threaded wrong in the first place, that's going to put a whole different spin on the situation; I might even have to go with a threadless BB and a JIS crank to make things work the way they should.

...crap.
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Old 04-13-16, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
So you are saying that when you slide the chainring onto the spindle on the drive side, and the end of the spindle is generally flush with the edge of the crank arm, the inside of the chainring is that close to the fixed cup? That's odd. What the clearance like on the crankarm on the NDS?

I dont know. Hmm....what do you think is happening?

Maybe @FBinNY will comment. He's seen everything and is a great resource.
I might comment if I had a sense of where to pick up this part of a 10,000 post (really???) thread.

If, as I suspect from your post alone, it's a case of the inside of the right crank touching the fixed cup, two possibilities come to mind.

1- spindle is in backward
2- (more likely) a mismatch between the crank and spindle. The thickness of the crank, including the chainring weld or lockring isn't standardized across brands, so it's possible that the spindle is too short for this particular right crank.

If this is a situation where the OP needs to find himself only 1mm or so, he can remove the spindle, and grind the outer side of the cotter flat to allow the crank to mount outboard that much more. If you go that route, be careful not to grind the flat itself, though undercutting it slightly ONLY at the work area will be OK, to ensure that the crank can move out and the cotter won't be affected by any error in grind angle.
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Old 04-13-16, 11:46 AM
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@FBinNY - thanks for chiming in. Yes, this is a long, loving thread. Good ideas.
@arex - take lots of photos & let us know how it turns out. I have a 44 tooth original crankset from my first R20 that you can have for the cost of shipping. Unfortunately the chrome on the NDS is cosmetically in poor shape. They work(ed) great though. PM me if you're interested & I can get them right out to you. VV
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Old 04-13-16, 01:14 PM
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https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3220653150...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT




Could anyone tell me exactly what I got hopelessly outbid on here? I was really interested in the brake lever set up, having never seen anything like it before. But what is it exactly? The sloping top tube and the handlebars seem to be the only distinctive features to me but I'm intrigued as to the details of the bike.
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Old 04-13-16, 01:23 PM
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Looks to be a sporty version of the rod brake bike that was common for decades before becoming almost exclusively a bobby (police) bike.

I suspect that the top tube is horizontal and only looks sloped in the photo. The rims are the classic "Westwood" pattern that Raleigh produced for decades.
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Old 04-13-16, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
@FBinNY - thanks for chiming in. Yes, this is a long, loving thread. Good ideas.
@arex - take lots of photos & let us know how it turns out. I have a 44 tooth original crankset from my first R20 that you can have for the cost of shipping. Unfortunately the chrome on the NDS is cosmetically in poor shape. They work(ed) great though. PM me if you're interested & I can get them right out to you. VV
Are those the correct sized bearings? Bearing size will affect spindle and adjustable cup location.
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Old 04-13-16, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by artclone
Are those the correct sized bearings? Bearing size will affect spindle and adjustable cup location.
The bearings are 1/4", same as original.
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