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For the love of English 3 speeds...

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For the love of English 3 speeds...

Old 04-05-18, 05:53 PM
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So, I rebuilt the headset with new bearings and grease. Oiled a very dry and clicking hub. Pressured up the tires and oiled the shifter. The farther I rode the better everything functioned. Clicking hub is quiet....shifter working well. I think adding a rear brake is great advice. Mainly because I keep reaching for it and I want some consistency. All is good then snap and I am an inch or so shorter...........did I mention the saddle was dry?
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Old 04-05-18, 06:11 PM
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...Ouch? Damn that sucks

I cut a piece of high density foam to sit between the leather and frame of one of my old brooks saddles...as insurance Glad to hear it rides well - it's always nice when everythings freshly rebuilt, lubed, and quiet
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Old 04-05-18, 06:14 PM
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Those of us who have experienced the death of a Brooks know your pain.
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Old 04-05-18, 06:17 PM
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i'd say yes
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Old 04-05-18, 06:17 PM
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That's too bad. This bike does deserve a leather saddle. A member here @rhm can replace the leather. Although a new B66 would be my choice because I prefer sprung saddles on roadsters.
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Old 04-05-18, 09:34 PM
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One thing I noticed about the S3C is that it seems to be geared higher than the AW hubs I have. Is this real or just my imagination? The BB still needs to be serviced but, there was a noticeable difference in pedal resistance compared to my other bikes.
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Old 04-06-18, 05:07 AM
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Those dished, splined cogs come in sizes from 16T to 24T, so you have plenty of overall gearing options. It's hard to imagine the bottom bracket is worn on a bike this clean, but at some point in the 70s Raleigh started using a 7 bearing plastic cage instead of loose bearings. Perhaps that's broken. In any case, if the BB does have those plastic cages, I would toss them and go back to the 11 per side loose bearings when I serviced the BB. Grease will hold the bearings in place on the spindle as you thread the spindle through the fixed cup. I never remove the fixed cup for normal servicing.
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Old 04-06-18, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by BigChief
That's too bad. This bike does deserve a leather saddle. A member here @rhm can replace the leather. Although a new B66 would be my choice because I prefer sprung saddles on roadsters.
The broken saddle is a B72 which does have springs but of different action. I have one from a 64 Sports but I'm afraid to test it for springiness lest it meet the same sad fate as the one on Beautiful Greenie. I may try to resurrect it, but it appears to have been dead for much longer than three days.

I really don't care for wider saddles and haven't ridden a sprung saddle since my last Schwinn back in 1969. May try a Flyer which, as I understand it, is a B17 with springs.
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Old 04-06-18, 06:37 AM
  #15984  
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Originally Posted by desconhecido
The broken saddle is a B72 which does have springs but of different action. I have one from a 64 Sports but I'm afraid to test it for springiness lest it meet the same sad fate as the one on Beautiful Greenie. I may try to resurrect it, but it appears to have been dead for much longer than three days.

I really don't care for wider saddles and haven't ridden a sprung saddle since my last Schwinn back in 1969. May try a Flyer which, as I understand it, is a B17 with springs.
The B66 is the same shape as the B72, or darn close. The coil springs at the back do smooth out shock from bumps better for upright riding and I like the frame mounted tool bag loops. There's a whole batch of new Brooks designs, but when I spend that kind of money for a saddle, I tend to stick with the tried and true.
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Old 04-06-18, 09:57 AM
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I recently heard from a horse saddle restorer if you heat the seat mildly maybe 170F they said a hair drier the saddle soap or oil or whatever you may use will soak in and condition more completely. All my seats of questionable age and show it. I need to treat half a dozen seats.

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Old 04-06-18, 10:00 AM
  #15986  
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Originally Posted by Chaser95
All is good then snap and I am an inch or so shorter...........did I mention the saddle was dry?
Its really not that hard to repair these so don't throw the frame and nose piece (cantile) out unless you really don't want to give it a try. The hard part is finding rivets that will do the job.

Drill out the old rivets and soak the leather bits till you can get them relatively flat. Place them on a bit of cardboard and draw the outline of the leather including where the holes are.

Its reasonable to assume the leather might be stretched, although your bike is original, so check the tension bolt of the nose hardware and see. If untightened, the leather is not stretched. If stretched, take that into account with your template, but try the template on the frame to make sure things will line up. Find a place that sells leather- you want something that its about the same thickness. My first attempt the leather was too thin and stretched too easily.

Use the template to cut out the leather. Bolt it to the frame (or build a form, but that takes a lot of time) after giving it a good soak. Use some cordage to wrap around the body to give it that Brooks shape. Let it dry. It will hold the shape. The nose is a bit of a trick. I soaked it in hot water till it was supple, and then used an iron to sculpt it to the nose cantile.

I then oiled it up and did further touch up with water and the iron. Both sides should be oiled.

After that I replaced the bolts with the rivets and then rode it. Since my leather was too soft, I had to really stretch it out, but it was quite comfortable.

Rudy (rhm) has done threads on saddle restoration. I've seen his work- its so good, makes the Brooks saddles seem a bit crude.
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Old 04-06-18, 10:18 AM
  #15987  
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OK, here are some "before" photos of the Raleigh Twenty.
1970’s Raleigh Twenty “before” photos by velocivixen, on Flickr1970’s Raleigh Twenty “before” photos by velocivixen, on Flickr1970’s Raleigh Twenty “before” photos by velocivixen, on Flickr
1970’s Raleigh Twenty “before” photos by velocivixen, on Flickr
1970’s Raleigh Twenty “before” photos by velocivixen, on Flickr
1970’s Raleigh Twenty “before” photos by velocivixen, on Flickr


So far removed brakes, front wheel & fender, fork. Headset was as dry as a bone! Cleaning parts with degreaser. Unlikely I'll do the ultrasonic cleaner treatment. Don't want to spend a bunch of time on it for now.
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Old 04-06-18, 10:20 AM
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I know Sturmey Archer sells a friction shifter for it's 3 speed hubs. Has anyone used just a generic, like a SunTour friction shifter for a AW 3 speed? Does a generic shifter have enough throw to get all 3 gears? Is there enough friction to hold the shift in place?

Thoughts? Anyone ever use one?
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Old 04-06-18, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
OK, here are some "before" photos of the Raleigh Twenty.

1970’s Raleigh Twenty “before” photos by velocivixen, on Flickr



So far removed brakes, front wheel & fender, fork. Headset was as dry as a bone! Cleaning parts with degreaser. Unlikely I'll do the ultrasonic cleaner treatment. Don't want to spend a bunch of time on it for now.
Nice eyed Heron crank with rounded crank arms! Not something you usually see on a 70s machine! Did you get a date off the hub?
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Old 04-06-18, 10:36 AM
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Generally I like fairly narrow saddles and did not really appreciate the sprung model until I bought a new B67 in Honey for my 1971 Robin Hood drop bar Sports. It is absurdly comfortable for the rides of 2-3 hour duration I normally do on this bike. I just purchased a new B67 in brown for my DL1 (S.W.A.T) to replace a bodged together BSA cover on a Brooks frame. It is also good right out the box.
My Salsa Vaya gravel bike has a B17 Champion Standard in apple green I purchased at discount and my 65 Dilecta Le Blanc road bike was just treated to a new brown B17N (narrow) which seems to fit this bike well.
Brooks saddles will last our lifetime if well cared for. Even if the bike gets sold the saddle often stays as it is difficult to recover the cost. For example the Robin Hood has $400CDN invested, take away the $175CDN for the Brooks and its $225CDN which puts this almost perfect, little used bike, at a more realistic selling price.
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Old 04-06-18, 10:54 AM
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@Salubrious - The hub says "71 2" and has a plastic oil cap. The front, as you see, has a band in the center of the hub for oiling. I've got a couple of other '71's and even a 1970 which don't have that type of front hub.
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Old 04-06-18, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
@Salubrious - The hub says "71 2" and has a plastic oil cap. The front, as you see, has a band in the center of the hub for oiling. I've got a couple of other '71's and even a 1970 which don't have that type of front hub.
The eyed heron cranks went out well before that- it seems that Raleigh had parts which may have been laying around for years before installation...
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Old 04-06-18, 02:27 PM
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I haven't seen enough examples to be definitive, but so far it seems that the heron eyes disappeared when the chainwheel changed from 48T to 46T in the early 70s.
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Old 04-06-18, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
@Salubrious - The hub says "71 2" and has a plastic oil cap. The front, as you see, has a band in the center of the hub for oiling. I've got a couple of other '71's and even a 1970 which don't have that type of front hub.
I have a 1970 or '71 step through Sports with a front hub that has an oil port. It does not have the extra chainwheel braces though.
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Old 04-06-18, 03:50 PM
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@BigChief, @Salubrious, and @dweenk - to add to the mystery the tooth count on the heron chainwheel is 44.

When did Raleigh switch to rounded crank arms? When did SA switch to plastic oil ports?

So far have finished the headset. Cotters out and locking is off. The adjustable cup is BONE dry and hard to turn. The bike is currently laying on its side with penetrating oil around the adjustment cup.

Ok, all my R20’s have plastic oil ports, rounded crank arms, but NONE have eyes on the herons. My R20’s are 1970, 1971’s and I th No a 1973.

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Old 04-06-18, 04:04 PM
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My LTD-3 handles snow better than I expected. I can't wait for it to be warm enough to ditch the studs.
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Old 04-06-18, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
I know Sturmey Archer sells a friction shifter for it's 3 speed hubs. Has anyone used just a generic, like a SunTour friction shifter for a AW 3 speed? Does a generic shifter have enough throw to get all 3 gears? Is there enough friction to hold the shift in place?

Thoughts? Anyone ever use one?
Yes. I'll probably do it again at some point, but don't know that I'd recommend it for anyone else. I did like the Suntour power ratchet shifters though. They don't drift or loosen up. I also liked the stupidly simple cable routing and that it wasn't really noticeable while riding.
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Old 04-06-18, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
@BigChief, @Salubrious, and @dweenk - to add to the mystery the tooth count on the heron chainwheel is 44.

When did Raleigh switch to rounded crank arms? When did SA switch to plastic oil ports?

So far have finished the headset. Cotters out and locking is off. The adjustable cup is BONE dry and hard to turn. The bike is currently laying on its side with penetrating oil around the adjustment cup.

Ok, all my R20’s have plastic oil ports, rounded crank arms, but NONE have eyes on the herons. My R20’s are 1970, 1971’s and I th No a 1973.
I think most of the round cranks were either shorter, had less teeth or both. Typical of junior bikes maybe, and with that Twenty's of course. Vv, how long are your crank arms?
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Old 04-06-18, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Arrowana
My LTD-3 handles snow better than I expected. I can't wait for it to be warm enough to ditch the studs.
We get 3" more Sunday. Today was colder than it should have been
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Old 04-06-18, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Mooo
Yes. I'll probably do it again at some point, but don't know that I'd recommend it for anyone else. I did like the Suntour power ratchet shifters though. They don't drift or loosen up. I also liked the stupidly simple cable routing and that it wasn't really noticeable while riding.
I like the SunTour Power shifters too. They're my favorite friction shifters. Had em on my old Grand Prix. Nice feel to them since there's no friction to overcome as you add tension to the cable. The friction only comes when you release tension. Rachet up, friction down. Today, I have the handlebar mounted thumb shifter version working the left side bell crank on my S5 Sprite.
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