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For the love of English 3 speeds...

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For the love of English 3 speeds...

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Old 07-11-18, 04:58 PM
  #17326  
arty dave
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Originally Posted by Stadjer View Post
I've got a question on my English 3-speed (part of a otherwise mostly Dutch bike). I put it here and not it in the bicycle mechanics section because I noticed there's quite a bit of specific SA knowledge here. It's got a Sturmey Archer AB hub and I want to change the entire brake including the plate, because the pivot bolt is loose from what is supposed to pivot around it .Does anyone know if the brake section is interchangeable with the AB/C hub? Because that entire brake plate (HSB315) is easy to find. Another question is whether there's any chance asbestos in it, it's little over 40 years old I guess but I didn't find any production year on it, and if so, how should I remove those parts safely?

When you say the pivot bolt do you mean the part that the cable or rod connects to? That's a pivoting arm - Sturmey Archer label it as 'brake lever' which is most unhelpful You should be able to tighten it, but if the outside nut is spinning, take the whole brake section off so you can secure the inside side of the bolt with something while you tighten the outside nut. I had to make a spanner from a piece of 2-3mm mild steel because I couldn't get a regular spanner in the gap to hold the inner bolt. Edit - sorry, I'm describing how to tighten the pivot bolt that the 2 brake shoes pivot on. This might be what you mean? They call it a fulcrum pin, and sometimes this incorporates a cable stop. It takes me a while to wrap my head around their part names, and English is the only language I know

I have an AB on my Raleigh DL-1 - the AB is rod operated; the 'C' in AB/C stands for cable. You probably know this, just putting it here for anyone that doesn't.

The brake section is a standard size, and the shoes are also interchangeable. So whatever small parts you need to work with your bikes rod or cable, you can take from one and put on the other.

If you're suspecting asbestos, maybe wear some disposable nitrile or latex gloves and a breathing mask. Wipe out the shell with a damp cloth or paper and then dispose of it. Then you could use some brake cleaner on the shell too, there's usually a bit of hub oil that's made its way into the drum. That's the drawback with the older drum hubs, there's not really an adequate seal from the gear side into the brake side of the hub. Best not to lay the bike down on that brake side. Hope that helps

Last edited by arty dave; 07-11-18 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 07-11-18, 06:57 PM
  #17327  
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Originally Posted by Buellster View Post
6'2" over here.
That's more of what I'm hoping for. A trigger shifter would be lovely.
Not too many in Portland Oregon but they dont cost an arm and a leg when they do show up (usually).
At 6'2" you positively need the taller 23" frame. There would be enough stem and seatpost adjustment to get a good leg extension and balance. It's easy to tell the size even by looking at the pictures in ads. Look at the head tube. Compare this 23" with the 21" bike in the ad.

And...at your height, you could easily ride a 24" framed DL-1 like this

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Old 07-11-18, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by gster View Post
The forks look a bit wonky on this one.
I'd pass unless you want a future parts bike.
Ditto on the fork. It's ~ '65 Raleigh Huffy. Pass. It's OK for parts if you're deep into 3 speeds but as a newbie, start with a better example
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Old 07-11-18, 08:12 PM
  #17329  
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
Ditto on the fork. It's ~ '65 Raleigh Huffy. Pass. It's OK for parts if you're deep into 3 speeds but as a newbie, start with a better example
Yes, as a first venture, tall frame, better condition. They're out there, you just have to find one.
You can still find nice examples for $125-$200.
You'll often seen His and Hers bikes for sale. Bought by a couple in the 70's,
ridden a few times and then stored in the basement.
Good luck.
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Old 07-12-18, 01:59 AM
  #17330  
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Originally Posted by arty dave View Post
When you say the pivot bolt do you mean the part that the cable or rod connects to? That's a pivoting arm - Sturmey Archer label it as 'brake lever' which is most unhelpful You should be able to tighten it, but if the outside nut is spinning, take the whole brake section off so you can secure the inside side of the bolt with something while you tighten the outside nut. I had to make a spanner from a piece of 2-3mm mild steel because I couldn't get a regular spanner in the gap to hold the inner bolt. Edit - sorry, I'm describing how to tighten the pivot bolt that the 2 brake shoes pivot on. This might be what you mean? They call it a fulcrum pin, and sometimes this incorporates a cable stop. It takes me a while to wrap my head around their part names, and English is the only language I know
That's the one I mean, it doesn't catch a thread and I suspect with the brake shoes off centre is must have worn unevenly until I loosened the rear brake rod to disable the rear brake, which causes the the rear rod to fall out of the lever on the bigger bumps and drag over the pavement. It needs the spring inside the brake to stay put. It probably went wrong when in last year's winter when there was a lot of snow and ice on the streets, the rods on these don't allow for using the brakes seperately so I unscrewed to front wheel brake rod and tightened the rear one to prevent locking the front wheel and going down. . There's a lot of play in the brake lever nut too, and allthough I like wrenching and will improvise with tools if I need to, I prefer smooth jobs . So that's why I hoped an entire new brake including the brake plate would fit. Originality is not my first concern, it's my daily commuter, it looks good in a casual way.

I have an AB on my Raleigh DL-1 - the AB is rod operated; the 'C' in AB/C stands for cable. You probably know this, just putting it here for anyone that doesn't.

The brake section is a standard size, and the shoes are also interchangeable. So whatever small parts you need to work with your bikes rod or cable, you can take from one and put on the other.
That's great, but I never suspected the C would stand for cable.

If you're suspecting asbestos, maybe wear some disposable nitrile or latex gloves and a breathing mask. Wipe out the shell with a damp cloth or paper and then dispose of it. Then you could use some brake cleaner on the shell too, there's usually a bit of hub oil that's made its way into the drum. That's the drawback with the older drum hubs, there's not really an adequate seal from the gear side into the brake side of the hub. Best not to lay the bike down on that brake side. Hope that helps
If it's on the kick stand it leans over to the drum side too, I guess a little oil leaking in doesn't affect brake performance very much. I think I take the wheel outside and spray the whole brake unit damp as soon as it's exposed, in addition to gloves and a mask.

Thank's a lot, I'll be back with an update when the job is done.
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Old 07-12-18, 09:23 AM
  #17331  
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The recent conversations about long-distance riding on a 3-speed inspired me to kit together a build and take on this challenge. The frameset is a mid-1970s Wes Mason (the second M in the MKM/Ron Kitching enterprise), full DB Reynolds 531, so reasonably light weight. To continue the keep the weight down (and compensate for the relatively heavy IGH), I went with a set of CLB brakes, a 122bcd later-model Nervar crankset with 45t ring, American Classic seat post, Brooks Swift with Ti rails, Nitto technomic stem, GB bars, and Brooks leather wrap, Shimano aero levers, Shimano A520 pedals. Wheelset is a rear 40-hole Titan Matrix and front is a Mavic with similar box section and color. Tires are Grand Bois Cypres 700 x 30mm (and a bit of a tight fit between the chain stays). Rear hub is an FM with alloy shell dated Sept 1954 (okay, I cheated and went with a 4-speed!). Total weight on my hanging scale as shown is about 22.5 lbs.


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The frame is a smidge on the small side for me, but that keeps the weight down for this purpose and fit feels pretty good as shown. I'll take it for a 20-30-mile test ride in the next day or so and decide if it'll suffice for a century ride next week.
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Old 07-12-18, 10:27 AM
  #17332  
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I wonder if there's something wrong with my AWC 3spd coaster hub. When I got it...it didn't spin smooth. So I did a overhaul complete...and adjusted the bearings properly.

Now when I spin the wheel (bike upside down)...it spins good and very smooth for about 2 turns. Then, it slows and stop...like the coaster brake engaged itself. This just seems very odd. For comparison, my modern Shimano CB-E110 coaster hub is super smooth...and will spin forever almost.

When I ride the bike, it feels very smooth. Also, it coast very smooth. But I occasionally hear strange intermittent noise from the hub...like something like a spring dragging on the hub shell or something. So, it's worrisome.



I guess for long term, I'm thinking of replacing this hub with a non coaster hub. Or maybe even a new one from SA.
But I really like coaster brake...wish I know what's wrong.

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Old 07-12-18, 10:43 AM
  #17333  
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
The recent conversations about long-distance riding on a 3-speed inspired me to kit together a build and take on this challenge. The frameset is a mid-1970s Wes Mason (the second M in the MKM/Ron Kitching enterprise), full DB Reynolds 531, so reasonably light weight. To continue the keep the weight down (and compensate for the relatively heavy IGH), I went with a set of CLB brakes, a 122bcd later-model Nervar crankset with 45t ring, American Classic seat post, Brooks Swift with Ti rails, Nitto technomic stem, GB bars, and Brooks leather wrap, Shimano aero levers, Shimano A520 pedals. Wheelset is a rear 40-hole Titan Matrix and front is a Mavic with similar box section and color. Tires are Grand Bois Cypres 700 x 30mm (and a bit of a tight fit between the chain stays). Rear hub is an FM with alloy shell dated Sept 1954 (okay, I cheated and went with a 4-speed!). Total weight on my hanging scale as shown is about 22.5 lbs.





The frame is a smidge on the small side for me, but that keeps the weight down for this purpose and fit feels pretty good as shown. I'll take it for a 20-30-mile test ride in the next day or so and decide if it'll suffice for a century ride next week.
Very nice build, but you should be aware that the alloy FMs have a distressing quality of ejecting their guts right through the hub body (no worries with the steel versions, and no worries with the alloy FWs). Alloy FMs should not be used for anything other than something to look at- maybe an ashtray or something.
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Old 07-12-18, 01:24 PM
  #17334  
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
The recent conversations about long-distance riding on a 3-speed inspired me to kit together a build and take on this challenge. The frameset is a mid-1970s Wes Mason (the second M in the MKM/Ron Kitching enterprise), full DB Reynolds 531, so reasonably light weight. To continue the keep the weight down (and compensate for the relatively heavy IGH), I went with a set of CLB brakes, a 122bcd later-model Nervar crankset with 45t ring, American Classic seat post, Brooks Swift with Ti rails, Nitto technomic stem, GB bars, and Brooks leather wrap, Shimano aero levers, Shimano A520 pedals. Wheelset is a rear 40-hole Titan Matrix and front is a Mavic with similar box section and color. Tires are Grand Bois Cypres 700 x 30mm (and a bit of a tight fit between the chain stays). Rear hub is an FM with alloy shell dated Sept 1954 (okay, I cheated and went with a 4-speed!). Total weight on my hanging scale as shown is about 22.5 lbs..
Nice build, and light too.
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Old 07-12-18, 03:08 PM
  #17335  
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Originally Posted by Salubrious View Post
Very nice build, but you should be aware that the alloy FMs have a distressing quality of ejecting their guts right through the hub body (no worries with the steel versions, and no worries with the alloy FWs). Alloy FMs should not be used for anything other than something to look at- maybe an ashtray or something.
Thanks for the heads up, but I've had that wheel on a bunch of different bikes for quite a while now--so far, so good. We'll see if I need to grab an Uber if it fails in the middle of a long ride.
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Old 07-12-18, 03:38 PM
  #17336  
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@nlerner - as you might remember I had a mid-70s Wes Mason myself (in the mid 70s)...now that I see your frame it is very different - mine had wrap over seat stays and a sloping crown on the fork...

anyway - love the build - did a similar build to get a 531 based IGH using my trek 600 - but ended up with flatter bars (didn’t like the drops overall).

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Old 07-12-18, 03:41 PM
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@BigChief: my current favourite saddle is the b67 I bought new - now that it’s adapted itself to my rump its a wonderful saddle - spends its days on the 49 Humber but it has moved around
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Old 07-12-18, 04:31 PM
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Don't know if anyone has tried this before, but it's new to me. Since I started messing with 3-speeds, one of the things that has been uncomfortable for me is the vintage grips that were on the bikes. The simple round ones seemed to small for my hands, and the ones with finger ridges didn't match up with my grip. Now, if I were building garage queens that wouldn't be ridden, I'd definitely leave the original grips on the bike. But I ride my Raleigh much more than I thought I would (errands, moderate rides of 15-20 miles), so I started looking at grips that would be more comfortable.The other day in the shop, I had somewhat of an epiphany, which is rare on account of all the brain cells I've murdered over the years. With supplies on hand, I put together a pair of very nice grips that are super comfortable. Here's what I did:
1. I had length of wide heat shrink tubing that I use to secure the bar tape on my road bikes. Got it on eBay a couple years ago.


2. I rummaged around and found an old pair of mountain bike grips that I had swapped out years ago. They are clamp-on, so they will be easy to remove.



3. Then, I dug through my scrap bag and found some old bar tape that I removed from my road bike last year. I keep it around for padding when I rewrap my bars.

4. I cut two pieces of shrink wrap off (about a quarter inch each) and set them aside.

5. I wrapped the mtb grips just like you would wrap a road bar. I used a small piece of tape to hold the bar tape as I started it.

6. When I had the bar tape on the way I wanted it, I slid the shrink wrap over each end and heated it up with me heat gun (don't get the gun too close to the grip).








Turned out pretty nice and very comfortable!
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Old 07-12-18, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
Thanks for the heads up, but I've had that wheel on a bunch of different bikes for quite a while now--so far, so good. We'll see if I need to grab an Uber if it fails in the middle of a long ride.
Looks to me like you have this question (century on an IGH) solved. And, a very nice build it is, too. Long as it doesn't assplode. What's the cog on the rear? I'm guessing 19t.

I have only one 4 speed and that's a 4 speed dyno hub that I bought from a forum member. It's built into a wheel with a 40h Dyad and I have the build into a SC MKII about half way done. Having a bit of trouble getting the shift from fourth to third to not pause at the neutral in between. Haven't spent enough time with it to determine whether it's the hub or the shifter that's hanging. The shifter is from a 51 step through -- a 3 or 4 speed one. Worked fine on that bike. MIght just need to have the cable replaced. Anyway, it's a steel shell so when I get it on the road it likely won't be assploding all over the place. I hate it when that happens.
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Old 07-12-18, 06:33 PM
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The 51 Rudge I'm working on now is my oldest project bike so I have some learning to do. As found, it had this steel kickstand attached.



It's a poor fit to the frame, looks aftermarket to me. The first mention of a Raleigh factory kickstand I can find is here in this 1951 catalog. It was a cast version offered as standard on the Superbe. There is no mention of kick stands in the 1948 parts catalog. As best as I can tell, Raleigh's light roadsters didn't come with them until the 1951 Superbe.


I may be wrong, if anyone here can correct me, please let me know, but I'm betting the clunky steel stand on the Rudge wasn't original factory equipment and this gives me the right to chuck it. The bike wil get a nice 70s cast alloy Pletscher ESGE .
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Old 07-12-18, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
Total weight on my hanging scale as shown is about 22.5 lbs.

...I'll take it for a 20-30-mile test ride in the next day or so and decide if it'll suffice for a century ride next week.
Really nice build Neal!
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Old 07-12-18, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by BigChief View Post
I may be wrong, if anyone here can correct me, please let me know, but I'm betting the clunky steel stand on the Rudge wasn't original factory equipment and this gives me the right to chuck it. The bike wil get a nice 70s cast alloy Pletscher ESGE .
i think we've discussed this but why wouldn't you want the Raleigh spec stand. It won't crush your stays and is elegant.

Please let me know if you want one.
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Old 07-12-18, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
i think we've discussed this but why wouldn't you want the Raleigh spec stand. It won't crush your stays and is elegant.

Please let me know if you want one.
I have one...somewhere. Saw it a couple of years ago when I tried it on a 64 Sports project. Lost track of it since. I'm sure I didn't throw it away, but I didn't like it. Very tippy. I'm reasonably sure this bike didn't originally have a stand, but this one put a dent in the left chainstay, so I'd like to cover it, but I'm not at all satisfied with the Raleigh stand.
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Old 07-13-18, 06:48 AM
  #17344  
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I cleaned up and polished the frame and front end chrome. Came out really nice. No rust issues anywhere. I added a spot of paint where the steel kickstand damaged the left chain stay and gave the small tube at the lower rear mudguard mount an extra coat because it seemed to be a spot that might collect moisture, but there was no rust even there.



I tried using varnish to repair the cloth cable housing covers, but found it was too light to hold the loose fibers down against the housing like I was hoping for. I went to plan B and mixed up some JB Weld with very little of the white hardener in the mix so it would stay black. I soaked the loose fibers with the glue and waited about 45 minutes until it got thick and gummy. Then I was able to roll the housing in my fingers and press down the frayed fibers. This time they stayed in place.

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Old 07-14-18, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ddeand View Post
Don't know if anyone has tried this before, but it's new to me. Since I started messing with 3-speeds, one of the things that has been uncomfortable for me is the vintage grips that were on the bikes. The simple round ones seemed to small for my hands, and the ones with finger ridges didn't match up with my grip. Now, if I were building garage queens that wouldn't be ridden, I'd definitely leave the original grips on the bike. But I ride my Raleigh much more than I thought I would (errands, moderate rides of 15-20 miles), so I started looking at grips that would be more comfortable.The other day in the shop, I had somewhat of an epiphany, which is rare on account of all the brain cells I've murdered over the years. With supplies on hand, I put together a pair of very nice grips that are super comfortable. Here's what I did:
1. I had length of wide heat shrink tubing that I use to secure the bar tape on my road bikes. Got it on eBay a couple years ago.


2. I rummaged around and found an old pair of mountain bike grips that I had swapped out years ago. They are clamp-on, so they will be easy to remove.



3. Then, I dug through my scrap bag and found some old bar tape that I removed from my road bike last year. I keep it around for padding when I rewrap my bars.

4. I cut two pieces of shrink wrap off (about a quarter inch each) and set them aside.

5. I wrapped the mtb grips just like you would wrap a road bar. I used a small piece of tape to hold the bar tape as I started it.

6. When I had the bar tape on the way I wanted it, I slid the shrink wrap over each end and heated it up with me heat gun (don't get the gun too close to the grip).
Turned out pretty nice and very comfortable!
As I've gotten older I've noticed hand and wrist discomfort on longer rides so I'm all for discarding any received wisdom in favor of whatever is effective. If your DIY grips work well, great, and they look good, too.
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Old 07-14-18, 06:50 AM
  #17346  
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Both the AW hubs I have in use have developed a reluctance to stay in first gear, even with the shift cable pulled tight (really tight). Is this a symptom of weak pawl springs?
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Old 07-14-18, 07:36 AM
  #17347  
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Originally Posted by ddeand View Post



Turned out pretty nice and very comfortable!
Great solution! I’m “borrowing” the heat shrink approach for my road bikes to be sure. I have large and bony hands, and I find that shellacked cork grips give me a good fit with reasonable shock absorption for our rough city streets.
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Old 07-14-18, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by BigChief View Post
The 51 Rudge I'm working on now is my oldest project bike so I have some learning to do. As found, it had this steel kickstand attached.



It's a poor fit to the frame, looks aftermarket to me. The first mention of a Raleigh factory kickstand I can find is here in this 1951 catalog. It was a cast version offered as standard on the Superbe. There is no mention of kick stands in the 1948 parts catalog. As best as I can tell, Raleigh's light roadsters didn't come with them until the 1951 Superbe.


I may be wrong, if anyone here can correct me, please let me know, but I'm betting the clunky steel stand on the Rudge wasn't original factory equipment and this gives me the right to chuck it. The bike wil get a nice 70s cast alloy Pletscher ESGE .

That is a later, aftermarket stand. Then tend to mash the chainstays in particular (that's the type of stand that mashed the stays on my Sprite). The 1970s Raleigh ESGE stands are a good replacement (Raleigh Model A, I think).
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Old 07-14-18, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by SirMike1983 View Post
That is a later, aftermarket stand. Then tend to mash the chainstays in particular (that's the type of stand that mashed the stays on my Sprite). The 1970s Raleigh ESGE stands are a good replacement (Raleigh Model A, I think).
Yes, the ones sold by Raleigh with the R-A stamp. Those are the ones I look for. They have the ears on the top plate that extend down and lock it in alignment with the rest of the stand. I think these require even less torque than the ones with independent top plates to hold firmly. The difference between these and the alloy Raleigh stands isn't just a little. It takes a far greater force to knock the bike over if it's fitted with an ESGE.

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Old 07-14-18, 07:39 PM
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@BigChief - What a lovely bike. Thank you so much for posting your progress. I have always wondered if and how to disassemble a flick shifter, as I have some that need work on the “innards” but I couldn’t figure a way to get apart, or get back together.

If you end end up doing any disassembly or spring replacement I would be happy if you could post some up close photos. I appreciate your efforts.
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