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For the love of English 3 speeds...

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For the love of English 3 speeds...

Old 07-15-18, 07:09 PM
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Picked Up a Pair of 1972 Raleigh Sports

I picked up a couple of pretty clean 1972 Raleigh Sports today. They appear to be in pretty good original shape, aside from the saddle on the women's model, and just need basic restoration. The women's model is English made and the men's was made in Malaysia. The men's model has a repainted rear fender and, I think, chain guard. They're both pretty rust free and should, I hope, be pretty straightforward to get on the road.


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Old 07-15-18, 08:56 PM
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I've always liked the burgundy color. Looks pretty on the stepthrough. Nice bikes. Malaysia? That's interesting. Except for the wheels, and that odd rear carrier, it looks like any other early 70s Nottingham Raleigh. Pretty sure Raleigh was still using 32/40 spoked wheels in 72 and for sure they still had Westrick rims.
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Old 07-15-18, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by BigChief
Nice day for a ride here today. Heavy overcast but no rain. Been riding the semi scorcher lately. I tend to binge ride different bikes. You're lucky. I don't know a soul that wants old 3 speeds and I really need to start getting rid of a few. It's on my list of things to do.
You're right. I'm drowning in these things.
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Old 07-15-18, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by DQRider
But enough of all that, here are some photos from this morning's ride to a local coffee shop called "Amore":
So, is that the coffee shop up the hill on Annapolis and Smith? Cool shop! Nice bike, that Carlton!
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Old 07-16-18, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by BigChief
I've always liked the burgundy color. Looks pretty on the stepthrough. Nice bikes. Malaysia? That's interesting. Except for the wheels, and that odd rear carrier, it looks like any other early 70s Nottingham Raleigh. Pretty sure Raleigh was still using 32/40 spoked wheels in 72 and for sure they still had Westrick rims.
The Malaysian-made bike also has some gold pinstriping that doesn't, as far as I know, appear on English-built Raleighs.
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Old 07-16-18, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by mtb_addict
Is the Brooks B17 too narrow for this type of bicycle?
This chart (I think made by Brooks but poached from Amazon) gives some guidance. This is for the Cambium saddles, but I bet one could find a sim one for the B's...Depending on how you ride, have your bike set up, and if you have a B17, give it a try.

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Old 07-16-18, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by ddeand

So, is that the coffee shop up the hill on Annapolis and Smith? Cool shop! Nice bike, that Carlton!
Yes, it is. And it would be even better if they had a bike rack outside. But the fact that the lady behind the counter let me park my bike inside scores big points in my book. I'm thinking we should organize a 3-speed ride starting from there...

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Old 07-16-18, 08:09 AM
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Well, here's why the AW hub had so much trouble falling into false neutrals. Everything is coated with sticky grease and the pawls can barely move even in this hot weather. Might be almost dried up heavy gear oil, not sure, but here's a lesson...Don't use heavy oil or grease anywhere near the pawls. Might not need to make new springs. I'll see how they work once everything is cleaned up.

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Old 07-16-18, 10:00 AM
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Got the hub cleaned up, works fine. But...Now I have a question for someone familiar with these older hubs. I swapped out the threaded driver for a splined one so I could have a choice of cogs. Looks good although I'll have to work out the chain line. My problem is I thought the dust cap behind the threaded cog would just come off when I removed the driver. Silly me. It's stuck tight and I can't see why. Is it threaded on ? Can I pry it off?



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Old 07-16-18, 10:14 AM
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Oops, never mind. Looks like I must use the newer style cap with the splined driver. I have a rusty 70s parts hub and the cap fits. I'll use it.

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Old 07-16-18, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
Thanks for the heads up, but I've had that wheel on a bunch of different bikes for quite a while now--so far, so good. We'll see if I need to grab an Uber if it fails in the middle of a long ride.
I figured the same; mine failed for no good reason other than being an FM, and did me the courtesy of locking the wheel. Mark Stonich (bikesmithdesign.com) had a spare hub body but basically said I could have it for $20 if I promised not to use it on an FM. They really are that bad and might be why they are one of the easier 4 speed hubs to find.

Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln
As I've gotten older I've noticed hand and wrist discomfort on longer rides so I'm all for discarding any received wisdom in favor of whatever is effective. If your DIY grips work well, great, and they look good, too.
Seat height, angle and setback (or set forward, in the case of slack geometries) plays an enormous role in hand and wrist comfort! Grips can help, but getting the seat right (and not making the mistake of angling the handlebars up at you from the stem) is far more important! The handlebar position is also important; as a general rule of thumb start with the bars at the seat height (or higher) and about 11 degrees down on the handlebar angle.

Nice grips!

Originally Posted by DQRider
Yes, it is. And it would be even better if they had a bike rack outside. But the fact that the lady behind the counter let me park my bike inside scores big points in my book. I'm thinking we should organize a 3-speed ride starting from there...
I'm down for that! We need more three speed action around here- the Lake Pepin tour and the ABCE are not enough!
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Old 07-16-18, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by BigChief
My problem is I thought the dust cap behind the threaded cog would just come off when I removed the driver. Silly me. It's stuck tight and I can't see why. Is it threaded on ? Can I pry it off?

No, you have to un-thread the cog to get it off. To do that, you need to secure the driver and use a chain whip and plenty of leverage to get the cog off. I use a wrench handle I clamp in a bench-mounted vise and then stick the slots of the driver on the handle. Be prepared for a fight. I use a 2' cheater pipe on the chain whip for more leverage, and plenty of penetrating oil.

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Old 07-16-18, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Salubrious
I'm down for that! We need more three speed action around here- the Lake Pepin tour and the ABCE are not enough!
The only problems with starting from that location are limited parking and the fact that it is at the top of that big hill coming up out of the valley (In my cafe racer days, I used to call it "Ton-Up Hill"). Think Ohio Street, or Simon's Ravine. Whatever ride we plan from that location, if we want to go someplace interesting, has to go down that hill and along the river one way or the other. Otherwise we would just be riding through suburbia in West Saint Paul - Inver Grove - Eagan.

Although I have come up Wabasha street and sort of meandered my way up the hill between Hall and Ohio without tackling the slope head-on, so that's an option. Add the bonus stops of Boca Chica Taco House and the Wabasha Brewery right next door! The only awkward stretch would be connecting the MRT to the Harriet Island leg. But that can't be as bad as some stretches of WI35 and US61 on the LP3ST. (You know I'm getting excited when I start speaking in acronyms!)

Okay, we might need to take this off-line. Can you PM me?

.
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Old 07-16-18, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by DQRider
The only problems with starting from that location are limited parking and the fact that it is at the top of that big hill coming up out of the valley (In my cafe racer days, I used to call it "Ton-Up Hill"). Think Ohio Street, or Simon's Ravine. Whatever ride we plan from that location, if we want to go someplace interesting, has to go down that hill and along the river one way or the other. Otherwise we would just be riding through suburbia in West Saint Paul - Inver Grove - Eagan.

Although I have come up Wabasha street and sort of meandered my way up the hill between Hall and Ohio without tackling the slope head-on, so that's an option. Add the bonus stops of Boca Chica Taco House and the Wabasha Brewery right next door! The only awkward stretch would be connecting the MRT to the Harriet Island leg. But that can't be as bad as some stretches of WI35 and US61 on the LP3ST. (You know I'm getting excited when I start speaking in acronyms!)

Okay, we might need to take this off-line. Can you PM me?

.
I don't recall if Lilydale road is open, but if it is, we can take the MRT to Mendota and from there to Ft Snelling, go down the hill and take the bike path to Minnehaha. Mostly on bike paths so not stressful, the way three speeds are supposed to be. I'd want better ice cream than the DQ though, no offense
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Old 07-16-18, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Nokton
The Malaysian-made bike also has some gold pinstriping that doesn't, as far as I know, appear on English-built Raleighs.
I agree it is a pre 1974 crank.
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Old 07-16-18, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by DQRider
Yes, it is. And it would be even better if they had a bike rack outside. But the fact that the lady behind the counter let me park my bike inside scores big points in my book. I'm thinking we should organize a 3-speed ride starting from there...

.
I would be game for a ride with you twin city dwellers.
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Old 07-16-18, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Salubrious
I don't recall if Lilydale road is open, but if it is, we can take the MRT to Mendota and from there to Ft Snelling, go down the hill and take the bike path to Minnehaha. Mostly on bike paths so not stressful, the way three speeds are supposed to be. I'd want better ice cream than the DQ though, no offense
No worries there. My handle is already obsolete, after three short years. I'm a Baskin Robbins man now. That Cherries Jubilee is tadiefor. And I'm a fan of the new taprooms that are springing up everywhere too. Which means I'll have to ride more miles if I want to stay in (some kind of) shape.

Last time I rode there, Lilydale road was a mess, and you couldn't get through to Mendota. But that was last Fall, so maybe now? Although we are still in flood season, so I'm thinking the other way, towards Mississippi Pub and beyond, might be better. I'll have to do some recon and figure this out. You have me motivated now.

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Old 07-17-18, 01:51 PM
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Has to be some love here...https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/s...?query=3+speed



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Old 07-17-18, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by BigChief
Well, here's why the AW hub had so much trouble falling into false neutrals. Everything is coated with sticky grease and the pawls can barely move even in this hot weather. Might be almost dried up heavy gear oil, not sure, but here's a lesson...Don't use heavy oil or grease anywhere near the pawls. Might not need to make new springs. I'll see how they work once everything is cleaned up.
Big Chief, the two AW hubs I have in use have been cleaned and lubed with a nice light oil but lately they have become reluctant to stay in first gear (slipping into 2nd usually, occasionally just slipping) even with the cable VERY tight. Could this be due to weak pawl springs needing replacement?
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Old 07-17-18, 07:59 PM
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Here is the main issue on the 1930s Phillips at the moment - a slightly separated non-drive rear dropout. The way these are made, a solid metal dropout is "sandwiched" through brazing into a slit in the rear fork. On the non-drive side, one of the sides of the "sandwich" has opened up a bit. The dropout itself is not loose at all.

What are the best options for repair here?

I'm not a frame builder. My guess is to clean up and braze the opened side back into place. Would this be a simple repair? I suppose the other option is some kind of modern weld to "spot weld" that side of the sandwich back into place, but brazing probably is the more correct way. Is this right?

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Old 07-17-18, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by paulb_in_bkln
Big Chief, the two AW hubs I have in use have been cleaned and lubed with a nice light oil but lately they have become reluctant to stay in first gear (slipping into 2nd usually, occasionally just slipping) even with the cable VERY tight. Could this be due to weak pawl springs needing replacement?
Both? That is very odd. You would have noticed the pawls acting sticky or sluggish when you had it apart. If they moved smartly I suspect the springs are fine. I don't like the sound of the cable being very tight in low gear. It shouldn't be. I suspect cable adjustment. So, just for the sake of it and because I like shop talk, I'll go through my setup procedure. First, make sure the indicator chain isn't bent or has any sticky links. Personally, I like to use new ones. Then, screw it all the way in then, back it off a half turn. You want both edges of the chain to ride evenly over the axle nut radius. By leaving it loose, it will self level. Then I check to see that the hub is truly in high gear by wiggling the cog and indicator chain to make sure it's bottomed out. I put the shifter in high position. Then I loosen the fulcrum clip and move it forward a bit to make sure I have plenty of slack in the cable. Then I thread the barrel adjuster about 1/4 the way on the indicator. Then, I'll move the fulcrum clip back until there's just a bit of slack left and tighten it. Now I know I'm close. The trick is to have the cable slack enough to engage high, tight enough to engage low but avoid the neutral spot in between 2nd and high. If the hub won't shift into low, I'll tighten the barrel adjuster a half turn until it does. If I still have any slack in the cable, I know high gear is OK so all I have to worry about is that it doesn't slip into neutral from 2nd. I road test this. Pedaling lightly I'll see if it slips or if I hear it start to slip. Then, I'll tighten the barrel adjuster a half turn at a time until I'm confident I'm out of the neutral area while the shifter is in 2nd. I know there's different methods. This is just the way I'm happy with doing it.
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Old 07-17-18, 11:58 PM
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Can I say that if the cable has kinks It will fu. The stretch goes to kinks instead of shift.
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Old 07-18-18, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by BigChief
Both? That is very odd. You would have noticed the pawls acting sticky or sluggish when you had it apart. If they moved smartly I suspect the springs are fine. I don't like the sound of the cable being very tight in low gear. It shouldn't be. I suspect cable adjustment. So, just for the sake of it and because I like shop talk, I'll go through my setup procedure. First, make sure the indicator chain isn't bent or has any sticky links. Personally, I like to use new ones. Then, screw it all the way in then, back it off a half turn. You want both edges of the chain to ride evenly over the axle nut radius. By leaving it loose, it will self level. Then I check to see that the hub is truly in high gear by wiggling the cog and indicator chain to make sure it's bottomed out. I put the shifter in high position. Then I loosen the fulcrum clip and move it forward a bit to make sure I have plenty of slack in the cable. Then I thread the barrel adjuster about 1/4 the way on the indicator. Then, I'll move the fulcrum clip back until there's just a bit of slack left and tighten it. Now I know I'm close. The trick is to have the cable slack enough to engage high, tight enough to engage low but avoid the neutral spot in between 2nd and high. If the hub won't shift into low, I'll tighten the barrel adjuster a half turn until it does. If I still have any slack in the cable, I know high gear is OK so all I have to worry about is that it doesn't slip into neutral from 2nd. I road test this. Pedaling lightly I'll see if it slips or if I hear it start to slip. Then, I'll tighten the barrel adjuster a half turn at a time until I'm confident I'm out of the neutral area while the shifter is in 2nd. I know there's different methods. This is just the way I'm happy with doing it.
I had a similar problem with the Robin Hood when I first put it together.
The culprit was the indicator chain. I swapped it out for a shorter version and all was well.
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Old 07-18-18, 06:16 AM
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Blast From The Past
A 1938 Hercules Falcon that I put together a few years back and sold to a friend at work.
As far as I know he's still riding it.
It was too small for me.

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Old 07-18-18, 08:11 AM
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Well, the Rudge has all new bearings in the hub, headset and bottom bracket, a nice new KMC chain and a 20T cog on the new driver. Notice my Raleigh special tool number "piece of wood". I use that to hold chain tension while I center the wheel and snug up the axle nuts. That 70s dustcap didn't fit the old hub. It was too deep and didn't leave enough room for the circlip. I had to steal one from another 50s hub I have. Now, I feel motivated to liberate the original one from the threaded driver.

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