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For the love of English 3 speeds...

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For the love of English 3 speeds...

Old 09-18-18, 07:09 PM
  #18101  
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Originally Posted by BigChief View Post
I just finished this 51 Rudge. I noticed the frame seemed heavier than the 23" TI Raleigh I did just before.I was wondering if it had to do with the steel used for the tubes. Raleigh didn't start touting their High Tensile steel until later in the 50s. I was wondering if perhaps the frame is heavier because it's made from a more mild steel. The hockey stick chainguard is original .Heavier or not, I'm in love with this one.
Thicker tubing, sturdier lugs, those huge seatstays, and that thick enamel paint all add up quite a bit.

Whether it's more mild or not, these things are a stiff as a butcher block. I'd have reservations about a fast descent on a TI-industries frame, but wouldn't think twice of it on of these. Hockey stick probably indicates that the bike was intended for the US market.

You won't regret hanging onto that one. Virtually identical to my '51 Sports sans the full chaincase. If you can manage to snag an original Rudge chaincase in comparable condition to match, I'd recommend it, even if it'd be toying with originality. Makes them really distinct, and it's rather reassuring to have the chain out of the elements and one's trouser leg.

-Kurt
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Old 09-18-18, 07:19 PM
  #18102  
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Two pics. One bike. Same bar grips.

[...]
-Kurt
I don't know if we're looking at the same pics or not.

What I see:
Pic 1 shows a bike with the bars mounted backwards, a small flange front hub and a Dyno hub rear. Pic 2 shows a bike with the bars mounted the other way, a IGH in the rear with no dyno, and a detached front wheel with a G6. Two bikes, both red, 4 distinct hubs.Pic 3 says Dremel , pics 4, 5, 6, 7 --same bike as in 1,

The only pic of bike 2 is Pic 2. edit: bike in pic2 shows none of the green paint and shows no grips. I know thes pics are odd as the later pics of bike 1 show it in the same physical location as the bike in pic 2, but I don't think it's the same bike.

edit again: bike in pic 2 has a chain on it and a replacement left pedal.

Last edited by desconhecido; 09-18-18 at 07:33 PM.
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Old 09-18-18, 07:26 PM
  #18103  
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Originally Posted by desconhecido View Post
I don't know if we're looking at the same pics or not.

What I see:
Pic 1 shows a bike with the bars mounted backwards, a small flange front hub and a Dyno hub rear. Pic 2 shows a bike with the bars mounted the other way, a IGH in the rear with no dyno, and a detached front wheel with a G6. Two bikes, both red, 4 distinct hubs.Pic 3 says Dremel , pics 4, 5, 6, 7 --same bike as in 1,

The only pic of bike 2 is Pic 2.
Crap - now I see the link to the ad. Only saw the two pics in the thread until now.

The one with the Dynothree/Dynofour is the one I've been mentioning. Seller will never get his $100, but perhaps that's just helping save someone from a much larger job than the $40 those two are barely worth. Admittedly, even though the Dynohubs and rims are interesting and probably worth more than $40 (if I know the chrome on these '50s Westwoods, possibly quite decent and salvageable under all that crud), the fact that you have to drag the frames along isn't as much a perk as a potential pain in the butt. Even stripping them for parts and offering the remaining bits in Pay it Forward would be an unnecessary shipping effort.

-Kurt
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Old 09-18-18, 07:41 PM
  #18104  
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Crap - now I see the link to the ad. Only saw the two pics in the thread until now.

The one with the Dynothree/Dynofour is the one I've been mentioning. Seller will never get his $100, but perhaps that's just helping save someone from a much larger job than the $40 those two are barely worth. Admittedly, even though the Dynohubs and rims are interesting and probably worth more than $40 (if I know the chrome on these '50s Westwoods, possibly quite decent and salvageable under all that crud), the fact that you have to drag the frames along isn't as much a perk as a potential pain in the butt. Even stripping them for parts and offering the remaining bits in Pay it Forward would be an unnecessary shipping effort.

-Kurt
That one with the green and red paint might be worth some coin if it can be verified to be a Jackson Pollock.
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Old 09-18-18, 08:02 PM
  #18105  
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Can those Rudge bikes be worth anything but salvage parts? It would be a major headache trying to source the parts, sheet metal and all, to put either back in an approximation of Rudgeness. If what is desired is a frame and some parts to create a "scorcher" or a pseudo-clubman or path racer or something, there are many Raleigh sports bikes available for not much which are probably much easier platforms. Of course, there is that chainwheel.
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Old 09-18-18, 08:05 PM
  #18106  
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Keep the older tall frame if you like how it rides. It's getting harder to find a 23 inch frame from that earlier era, and they have a little "extra" to them, being from that era. Those frames earlier are a little heavier, but they're very well-made. They've got a cachet beyond the more common stuff. They're harder to replace if you regret selling later.

I had a late '40s Dawn Tourist tall frame that I sold. It was a solid bike but I sold it because my other Raleighs rode better. It had the chain case, generator set, the works - but I ended up preferring my 1958 Sports 4-speed. In fact, my 1974 Sports 3-speed also rode better than the Dawn Tourist.

Which brings up a point that I've found after messing around with old bikes for more years than I'd like to admit: each old bike has its own feel. I have a 1974 Sports that is a gem to ride, but had a late 1960s-era Raleigh that was pitiful and was supposedly the same basic product as the '74. I've had some dud Raleighs from the 1950s. I've had some great stuff from the 1950s as well.

You reach a point where you buy what appeals to you and see if you like the feel of the finished project. If not, sell it and move to the next project. If you're not careful, you end up with a garage full of old bikes and not enough space. But that's how it goes. There are worse outcomes.
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Old 09-18-18, 10:05 PM
  #18107  
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Originally Posted by SirMike1983 View Post
If you're not careful, you end up with a garage full of old bikes and not enough space. But that's how it goes. There are worse outcomes.
If you're really not careful, you end up with a garage full of crap that is NOT old bikes and which gets in the way of acquiring more old bikes. But that's how it goes.

Do not let this happen to you.
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Old 09-19-18, 04:15 AM
  #18108  
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Originally Posted by thumpism View Post
If you're really not careful, you end up with a garage full of crap that is NOT old bikes and which gets in the way of acquiring more old bikes. But that's how it goes.

Do not let this happen to you.
Good advise.
In the past two days I've given two bikes away to deserving young people.
1971 Hercules has gone to a former student of mine, Jessica..
She recently broke up with her fiance and decided to make cycling part of her new start in life.
She doesn't mind riding a men's bike.


A small frame men's bike that she was quite happy to receive.
I lowered the seat and bars. Saddle bags were not included...
1971 Superbe was given to my friend Tim's daughter who recently had
her bike stolen at university.

Again, seat and bars lowered. Pump was not included.
I made a promise to myself to only hang onto 23" bikes.
It's not a big dent in the fleet but it's a start.
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Old 09-19-18, 04:17 AM
  #18109  
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Originally Posted by BigChief View Post
I just finished this 51 Rudge. I noticed the frame seemed heavier than the 23" TI Raleigh I did just before.I was wondering if it had to do with the steel used for the tubes. Raleigh didn't start touting their High Tensile steel until later in the 50s. I was wondering if perhaps the frame is heavier because it's made from a more mild steel. The hockey stick chainguard is original .Heavier or not, I'm in love with this one.

Nothing compares to a traditional black British roadster.
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Old 09-19-18, 04:26 AM
  #18110  
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Originally Posted by desconhecido View Post
Sad doesn't begin to describe those two. About those bars: reminds me of the old saying that somebody doesn't know whether he's coming or going.
I saw a guy recently, riding his bike with the forks spun around backwards.
I tried to talk to him but he said he wanted them like that......
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Old 09-20-18, 02:17 PM
  #18111  
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Thicker tubing, sturdier lugs, those huge seatstays, and that thick enamel paint all add up quite a bit. Whether it's more mild or not, these things are a stiff as a butcher block. I'd have reservations about a fast descent on a TI-industries frame, but wouldn't think twice of it on of these.
I won't disagree that the 50's Raleighs were nicer frames, but I have done plenty of fast descents on the later TI Industries frames. (Hello, Bay City Hill!) I think the wheels and brakes are more important than the frame when it comes to descents. It might be blasphemy, but I love the stopping power combination of modern aluminum rims with more modern brakes and Kool Stop pads. I've upgraded the wheels and brakes on all my three speeds.
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Old 09-20-18, 02:38 PM
  #18112  
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Just added N+1...

1960 Sports, 23" frame. The paint looks nearly new, with good chrome. One bug I've not seen before- the shifter doesn't like to be firmly tightened down on the handlebars. It does not more freely at that point- to make it work properly I have to back off the mounting bolt half a turn. Its raining pretty hard today so its a good day to clean and lube its bearings...
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Old 09-20-18, 08:51 PM
  #18113  
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Originally Posted by Salubrious View Post
Just added N+1...

1960 Sports, 23" frame. The paint looks nearly new, with good chrome. One bug I've not seen before- the shifter doesn't like to be firmly tightened down on the handlebars. It does not more freely at that point- to make it work properly I have to back off the mounting bolt half a turn. Its raining pretty hard today so its a good day to clean and lube its bearings...
That style shifter has a spacer bar down by the mounting screw. It's meant to resist deforming the case as you tighten the mounting screw. I suspect it may be missing.
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Old 09-20-18, 09:24 PM
  #18114  
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Originally Posted by adventurepdx View Post
I won't disagree that the 50's Raleighs were nicer frames, but I have done plenty of fast descents on the later TI Industries frames. (Hello, Bay City Hill!) I think the wheels and brakes are more important than the frame when it comes to descents. It might be blasphemy, but I love the stopping power combination of modern aluminum rims with more modern brakes and Kool Stop pads. I've upgraded the wheels and brakes on all my three speeds.
My scorcher has aluminum rims, Tektro R559 brakes and cable stops on the top tube. The brakes do feel luxurious, like having power brakes. Such a light touch, but as far as actual stopping distance when dry, I don't see a big advantage over the old brakes on steel rims. Good pads like Kool Stops or the Fibrax " Science" pads for steel rims and roughing up the rim sides with 220 sandpaper do make a world of difference. I'm sure if you did a side by side test, you could quantify some improvement, but it doesn't stand out much to me. Hydraulic discs on the other hand DO stand out. Very impressive to an old fart like me used to oldtime calipers.But I agree about the TI era frames. I've never had a problem with them.
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Old 09-20-18, 09:50 PM
  #18115  
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Originally Posted by adventurepdx View Post
I won't disagree that the 50's Raleighs were nicer frames, but I have done plenty of fast descents on the later TI Industries frames. (Hello, Bay City Hill!) I think the wheels and brakes are more important than the frame when it comes to descents. It might be blasphemy, but I love the stopping power combination of modern aluminum rims with more modern brakes and Kool Stop pads. I've upgraded the wheels and brakes on all my three speeds.
The most important thing for me about any bike is that I like to ride it and aluminum rims and good brake pads are important. Doesn't mean that I wouldn't ride/own a steel rimmed bike, I do, but the bikes with replacememnt rims (Cr 18s) are, in my opinion, more friendly to ride. And, putting alloy rims on a 79 Raleigh Sports? It's not like painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa.
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Old 09-21-18, 04:53 AM
  #18116  
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Originally Posted by desconhecido View Post
The most important thing for me about any bike is that I like to ride it and aluminum rims and good brake pads are important. Doesn't mean that I wouldn't ride/own a steel rimmed bike, I do, but the bikes with replacememnt rims (Cr 18s) are, in my opinion, more friendly to ride. And, putting alloy rims on a 79 Raleigh Sports? It's not like painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa.
True, but remember that the older 40/32 hole Westricks in good shape are super hard to find. If you ever swap out older rims, you could do it for free by selling the 40/32 pair if they're clean. Not sure when Raleigh decided to go normal with 36/36H. Sometime in the early 70s.
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Old 09-21-18, 08:26 AM
  #18117  
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Originally Posted by BigChief View Post
True, but remember that the older 40/32 hole Westricks in good shape are super hard to find. If you ever swap out older rims, you could do it for free by selling the 40/32 pair if they're clean. Not sure when Raleigh decided to go normal with 36/36H. Sometime in the early 70s.
A couple years ago, I shipped a pair of Raleigh patent rims from a 54 to a forum member. Cost was $16 or $18, I can't remember. They were ok rims that I had soaked in OA, but not great. I wouldn't call them "clean." The only old Raleigh rims that I've encountered that were "clean" are on a 51 step through. They are some sort of stainless type alloy. Stainless spokes, too. The moved to plain carbon steel in 52 or so.

Of course, I've seen many pictures of old Raleighs here with what appear to be plain steel rims with chrome in excellent condition -- just never encountered one in person.
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Old 09-21-18, 08:54 AM
  #18118  
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
It's probably a solid frame under all the rust
I'm pretty sure all Raleigh frames are hollow. OK, sorry.
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Old 09-21-18, 09:57 AM
  #18119  
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Originally Posted by BigChief View Post
My scorcher has aluminum rims, Tektro R559 brakes and cable stops on the top tube. The brakes do feel luxurious, like having power brakes. Such a light touch, but as far as actual stopping distance when dry, I don't see a big advantage over the old brakes on steel rims.
The operative term there is "dry". I live in damp ol' Portland, Oregon, and ride my three speeds all year. I'm done with the sketchy braking of wet steel rims. It's okay to keep the rims steel if your three speed isn't going to see rain, though.

Originally Posted by BigChief View Post
Good pads like Kool Stops or the Fibrax " Science" pads for steel rims and roughing up the rim sides with 220 sandpaper do make a world of difference. I'm sure if you did a side by side test, you could quantify some improvement, but it doesn't stand out much to me. Hydraulic discs on the other hand DO stand out. Very impressive to an old fart like me used to oldtime calipers.But I agree about the TI era frames. I've never had a problem with them.
I've tried the Fibrax pads on steel rims, and felt that the improvement in wet braking power was negligible.
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Old 09-21-18, 10:11 AM
  #18120  
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Originally Posted by desconhecido View Post
And, putting alloy rims on a 79 Raleigh Sports? It's not like painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa.
Quote of the day!
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Old 09-21-18, 10:11 AM
  #18121  
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Originally Posted by desconhecido View Post
A couple years ago, I shipped a pair of Raleigh patent rims from a 54 to a forum member. Cost was $16 or $18, I can't remember. They were ok rims that I had soaked in OA, but not great. I wouldn't call them "clean." The only old Raleigh rims that I've encountered that were "clean" are on a 51 step through. They are some sort of stainless type alloy. Stainless spokes, too. The moved to plain carbon steel in 52 or so.

Of course, I've seen many pictures of old Raleighs here with what appear to be plain steel rims with chrome in excellent condition -- just never encountered one in person.
By clean I mean reasonable. It's nice to have a bike looking old but cared for in the end. I've seen many pre TI Raleighs that were in good condition except for the rims, so nice Westricks are at a premium for anybody looking to do factory correct project. This Rudge is the oldest project I've done so far. It has chrome Westricks and stainless spokes. The only difference I see between these 1951 and more modern Westricks is that the raised center section has a satin finish. If anybody had a bike like this with rusted out rims, more modern 40/32H Westricks would be plenty good enough. By the later 50s Raleigh was using Endrick rims on the Rudge models. Much easier to find replacements for those.
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Old 09-21-18, 10:14 AM
  #18122  
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Originally Posted by BigChief View Post
True, but remember that the older 40/32 hole Westricks in good shape are super hard to find. If you ever swap out older rims, you could do it for free by selling the 40/32 pair if they're clean. Not sure when Raleigh decided to go normal with 36/36H. Sometime in the early 70s.
Originally Posted by desconhecido View Post
A couple years ago, I shipped a pair of Raleigh patent rims from a 54 to a forum member. Cost was $16 or $18, I can't remember. They were ok rims that I had soaked in OA, but not great. I wouldn't call them "clean." The only old Raleigh rims that I've encountered that were "clean" are on a 51 step through. They are some sort of stainless type alloy. Stainless spokes, too. The moved to plain carbon steel in 52 or so.
Yeah, I never had great luck with the old rims either. The chrome on them looked okay, but there was no way to fix spokes or true the wheels as the nipples etc had rusted.
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Old 09-21-18, 10:58 AM
  #18123  
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Originally Posted by BigChief View Post
That style shifter has a spacer bar down by the mounting screw. It's meant to resist deforming the case as you tighten the mounting screw. I suspect it may be missing.
Got it in one. I found an aluminum spacer at Ace that looks to be a good candidate.

Originally Posted by BigChief View Post
True, but remember that the older 40/32 hole Westricks in good shape are super hard to find. If you ever swap out older rims, you could do it for free by selling the 40/32 pair if they're clean. Not sure when Raleigh decided to go normal with 36/36H. Sometime in the early 70s.
Probably later than 1972. That is the year that the lined AWs and the 6-point Heron cranks turned up, so you can have a '72 with an unlined hub and a 9-point crank, but either way it will be 32-40 front and rear.
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Old 09-21-18, 01:45 PM
  #18124  
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Originally Posted by Salubrious View Post
Got it in one. I found an aluminum spacer at Ace that looks to be a good candidate.



Probably later than 1972. That is the year that the lined AWs and the 6-point Heron cranks turned up, so you can have a '72 with an unlined hub and a 9-point crank, but either way it will be 32-40 front and rear.
What's the difference between a lined and an unlined AW hub? (How would you tell which one you have and why would it matter?)

Thanks,
Ed
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Old 09-21-18, 01:49 PM
  #18125  
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Originally Posted by groth View Post
What's the difference between a lined and an unlined AW hub? (How would you tell which one you have and why would it matter?)

Thanks,
Ed
An unlined hub has a smooth finish. Lined hubs have lines running around their circumference. I like to think that the machining is better on the earlier smooth hubs; this appears to be so in particular with 1950s to early 1960s hubs.
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